Significance of these types of clan pins.

[davidlpope]

I say this with the greatest of respect to all, but we have a mixing of cultures here and I am not at all convinced that Scots kilt culture and American military(in a civilian context)culture are mixing well.

I my view, leave the medal ribbons and other military badges at home when wearing the kilt as a civilian, apart from very specific events, like Armistice Day. Sorry.

If a person earns their military credentials here in the USA he/she is perfectly proper in following our customs when wearing the kilt, I can discern no reason why they would be forced to wear them according to only British custom. The codes state that they can be worn with "proper" attire. In my humble opinion nothing could be more proper than the kilt.

I always scratch my head over why so many kilted men wear decorations in the daytime. I have miniature medals that I wear with evening dress when the occasion calls for it, but it seems ostentatious to wear a ribbon rack to a regular highland games.

I guess I'm more of the school that one's military service, in itself, leads to a deep sense of personal satisfaction and that there is no need to advertise such service to others. In that sense, it's not a question of whether one CAN wear personal decorations with civilian dress, but that it seems a bit common to wear such decorations in circumstances where they seem showy/out of place, etc.

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

If one says that it is proper to wear military insignia on day wear civilian Highland attire because the kilt is "clothing, not a costume", does this mean it would also be appropriate to wear military insignia on western wear if attending a rodeo? Or on a leather jacket if going to a motorcycle rendezvous? Or how about on a suit coat or jacket when going to church or synagog for Divine services?

I think the key phrase is "proper occasion"-- taking part in a veteran's day parade with one's local VFW Chapter would seem like a proper occasion; going to the Kentucky Derby probably isn't.

Perhaps someone can explain why a Scottish Games is a proper occasion to wear military insignia with civilian clothing, but a British car show isn't?

[Mickey]

If one says that it is proper to wear military insignia on day wear civilian Highland attire because the kilt is "clothing, not a costume", does this mean it would also be appropriate to wear military insignia on western wear if attending a rodeo? Or on a leather jacket if going to a motorcycle rendezvous? Or how about on a suit coat or jacket when going to church or synagog for Divine services?

I think the key phrase is "proper occasion"-- taking part in a veteran's day parade with one's local VFW Chapter would seem like a proper occasion; going to the Kentucky Derby probably isn't.

Perhaps someone can explain why a Scottish Games is a proper occasion to wear military insignia with civilian clothing, but a British car show isn't?

Personally, I have seen folks wearing various military insignias and decorations at all of these mentioned, and more, and it does not bother me a bit. If they have earned them, I simply do not see the problem whether they are being worn on dinner dress at a ball or a a denim jacket in a morning slop chute. It may look "out of place" to some, but then again, so does a kilt in most cases here. I simply do not understand how wearing those items with a kilt in any way disrespects the kilt or the military devices.

I think ctbuchanan summed it all up quite nicely. I can only assume that it is simply a cultural issue.

Out of curiosity though, now I must ask if my wearing of my USMC insignia as a kilt pin somehow offends anybody in the UK.

[Jock Scot]

Personally, I have seen folks wearing various military insignias and decorations at all of these mentioned, and more, and it does not bother me a bit. If they have earned them, I simply do not see the problem whether they are being worn on dinner dress at a ball or a a denim jacket in a morning slop chute. It may look "out of place" to some, but then again, so does a kilt in most cases here. I simply do not understand how wearing those items with a kilt in any way disrespects the kilt or the military devices.

I think ctbuchanan summed it all up quite nicely. I can only assume that it is simply a cultural issue.

Out of curiosity though, now I must ask if my wearing of my USMC insignia as a kilt pin somehow offends anybody in the UK.

No I would not be offended if you wore your USMC insignia in the UK, I might quietly consider it rather loud though. But on the other hand you need to understand it is not our way. Out of courtesy and respect I doubt that any uncomplimentary words would be uttered. Far from it in fact, but it is still is not our way here.We wear a regimental tie------the effect is the same---it is an identification. OK splitting hairs maybe, but as the kilt is a Scottish thing and the Scots regiments are part of the British army, then a happy marriage of traditions works for us. With the greatest of respect to ex-servicemen outwith the UK I am not convinced that the marriage of kilt and civilians wearing their hard earned military decorations works as well.

I am not in any way saying that you cant wear your decorations with the kilt what I am suggesting is; should you? It is all a matter of culture and discretion I suppose. But -----------

[Dale Seago]

Out of curiosity though, now I must ask if my wearing of my USMC insignia as a kilt pin somehow offends anybody in the UK.

At a Scottish event earlier this year (Ardenwood Tartan Day celebration) I noticed several men -- and one woman -- wearing kilts in the Leatherneck tartan and using the USMC Eagle/Globe/Anchor insignia as a kilt pin. Panache and a few other forum members who were there may recall seeing them too. Personally, I found that a sharp-looking and to my mind appropriate combination, even though I don't wear kilt pins myself.

I probably noticed because I'd come within a hair's breadth of wearing the Leatherneck tartan myself, but at the last moment went with Douglas Modern instead.

[Fitzy]

I have the utmost respect for your opinion and understand your point of view about mixing culture but I must disagree. Although I was born in the USA my mother was born in Scotland and my father in York. He served in the Royal Horse Artillery and then the Mounted Section of the Palestine Police from 1932 to 1949, leaving as Assistant Supt of Police in Jerusalem (equiv. to a colonel I believe).

The problem is that we don't wear the kilt as a costume attempting to be Scottish. The kilt, as has been illustrated in thousands of posts on this website, is a "living" garment and can (and in my opinion should) be adapted for use in any culture that those of us of Scots ancestry are found. To say that if we wear the kilt we must wear it according to the custom only of Scotland or the U.K. is, with all due respect, impossible. If a person earns their military credentials here in the USA he/she is perfectly proper in following our customs when wearing the kilt, I can discern no reason why they would be forced to wear them according to only British custom. The codes state that they can be worn with "proper" attire. In my humble opinion nothing could be more proper than the kilt.

Well said ctbuchanan.

-----------

Jock.
I know you mean no disrespect.

And, I mean no disrespect for kilts.

Like many in Scotland, I only wear my kilts on special occasions to honor my ancestors. Not that I think there's anything wrong with wearing a kilt everyday. Just that for me, it's more to do with my family history than comfort.

And since I was one of only a handful of NCOs authorized to wear those crests and they were presented to me by the Battalion commander himself, they are very special to me. So like my kilts, they are only worn on special occasions with great respect.

Paul

[ctbuchanan]

I would like to only add a few points to perhaps put the "scope" of the issue into perspective lest our Scottish brethren get the wrong impression.

I have no problem with the gentleman in the photo at the start of the thread wearing whatever insignia he is entitled to. But I will add that I have attended hundreds of games from California to Florida and of course my home in New England. There are very few who wear any military ribbons or medals that I can recall with civilian attire. Insignia of various branches of the military and rank (i.e. sergeants stripes etc.) are more common as a cap badge or kilt pin - all in very good taste.

There are of course those that are commonly seen at the games: members of SAMS (Scottish American Military Society) are common at many games and usually wear a military shirt with their kilts and look excellent. Re enactors are also common of British regiments from many periods of history including modern times.

So I would reassure our friends from the U.K. that while we do see them worn with the kilt, it is not at all (in my opinion) common.

By the way, my father used to fly the Union Jack from the front of our house every 4th of July just to rile the neighbors, but never once wore any of the several British military medals he was entitled to in all the years I knew him.

[creagdhubh]

I always scratch my head over why so many kilted men wear decorations in the daytime. I have miniature medals that I wear with evening dress when the occasion calls for it, but it seems ostentatious to wear a ribbon rack to a regular highland games.

I guess I'm more of the school that one's military service, in itself, leads to a deep sense of personal satisfaction and that there is no need to advertise such service to others. In that sense, it's not a question of whether one CAN wear personal decorations with civilian dress, but that it seems a bit common to wear such decorations in circumstances where they seem showy/out of place, etc.

I scratch my head too, David. I too have miniature medals that when wearing Highland dress, I choose to wear with only evening attire, affixed at the appropriate place on my regulation doublet. As a former active-duty Marine with various awards, to include parachutist wings ("jump" wings), from my time in service, I do not wear these pinned all over my chest during the day at Highland games and other related gatherings.

Me - wearing my miniature medals and "jump" wings with a civilian suit - quite appropriate for the day, my lovely wife, also a Marine, and the Assistant Commandant of the Marine Corps. Photo taken at Marine Week, Saint Louis, Missouri, June 2011.


Semper Fidelis and Ductus Exemplo,

[Mickey]

I am not in any way saying that you cant wear your decorations with the kilt what I am suggesting is; should you? It is all a matter of culture and discretion I suppose. But -----------

Mr. Jock, I think I understand where you are coming from. Over here though, I think there is one word missing from Could and Should, and that is Would. As in, I want to dress in jeans and leather and go hang out at the local biker bar. Could I wear my devices on my vest? (absolutely) Should I wear them? (over here, there is absolutely no reason why not) Would I? (no, simply and only because it is not my personal style).

Here, there are very few instances where wearing a device or decoration would be, stress the word, inappropriate. Somebody wearing a device in any many of dress would likely never stir a negative thought from anybody, unless the device itself were being worn inappropriately/disrespectfully (upside down, altered, etc).

In fact, it is more the norm here, for veterans to wear something on jackets, hats, belts, etc. no matter what the dress or setting.

[creagdhubh]

If one says that it is proper to wear military insignia on day wear civilian Highland attire because the kilt is "clothing, not a costume", does this mean it would also be appropriate to wear military insignia on western wear if attending a rodeo? Or on a leather jacket if going to a motorcycle rendezvous? Or how about on a suit coat or jacket when going to church or synagog for Divine services?

I think the key phrase is "proper occasion"-- taking part in a veteran's day parade with one's local VFW Chapter would seem like a proper occasion; going to the Kentucky Derby probably isn't.

Perhaps someone can explain why a Scottish Games is a proper occasion to wear military insignia with civilian clothing, but a British car show isn't?

Good point(s), Scott. I think you hit the nail on the head here.

Cheers,