Sett Size

[CDNSushi]

Wow, you learn something new every day. Now at the risk of exposing my ignorance, could someone explain HOW it's possible that a tartan might have more than one sett size? I was under the impression that sett size was determined by thread count... And if you alter the thread count, are you not then changing the name/design of the tartan itself? Or is it simply just a matter of doubling or halving the thread count to obtain the larger or smaller sett size?

[Paul Henry]

Wow, you learn something new every day. Now at the risk of exposing my ignorance, could someone explain HOW it's possible that a tartan might have more than one sett size? I was under the impression that sett size was determined by thread count... And if you alter the thread count, are you not then changing the name/design of the tartan itself? Or is it simply just a matter of doubling or halving the thread count to obtain the larger or smaller sett size?

The thread count is a fixed formula, but there is no reason why it can't be doubled/trebled etc , as long as the actual propotions remain the same.
A client wanted a kilt done in St Kilda which is a small red/ black sett, I got D Dalgleish to enlarge the sett so that red lines were about 1 cm wide, it looked great when it was finished, not at all like a table cloth!

[seanachie]

I own a PV kilt in Isle of Skye and I have noticed significant differences in sett size between mine and the various posted pics of 16 oz. wool posted by other members. I do agree that it does make a notable difference based on the size of the sett. In IoS I do like the larger sett size.

Also, Paul Henry's post reminds me of traits of a good kilt maker. Clearly Paul had the foresight to see the visual issue with the standard set and had Dalgleish make alterations in the weave. I have been largely lucky in that kiltmakers I have chosen have raised issues in discussion that I might have thought of, and clearly sett size is one that makes a difference.

[zazenkilter]

Sett size gives the formula that is made of thread count and colours used to make a tartan. once the formula is sett and registered, IT CAN NOT BE CHANGED and be what it was named as, to change the formula or sett, you will make a completely new tartan. the only way the set is changed is the ounce of the thread used to make the tartan. a 10 oz is smaller, therefore the tartan sett size is smaller then aa 22 oz thread and so on...there is NO OTHER WAY TO change the sett size for a given named tartan. hope this helps you. You can always create a new tartan based on an original tartan, by change in the number of threads per colour and repeat the pattern, but if it is to close to the original tartan the Registry of Tartan, may not pass if for registration.

[M. A. C. Newsome]

Sett size gives the formula that is made of thread count and colours used to make a tartan. once the formula is sett and registered, IT CAN NOT BE CHANGED and be what it was named as, to change the formula or sett, you will make a completely new tartan. the only way the set is changed is the ounce of the thread used to make the tartan. a 10 oz is smaller, therefore the tartan sett size is smaller then aa 22 oz thread and so on...there is NO OTHER WAY TO change the sett size for a given named tartan. hope this helps you. You can always create a new tartan based on an original tartan, by change in the number of threads per colour and repeat the pattern, but if it is to close to the original tartan the Registry of Tartan, may not pass if for registration.

This is not correct at all. The thread count of a tartan is there primarily to give you an idea of proportion, not to formally dictate the exact number of threads used. What defines the tartan is a combination of the pattern and colors, and if you change all the numbers in the thread count proportionally, the pattern (and therefore the tartan) remain the same.

This can be easily demonstrated by looking at how the thread count for one of the simplest tartans is typically rendered. The black and red "Rob Roy" MacGregor tartan is often written thus:
K=R

This means that the number of black threads is the same as the number of red threads, giving you the simple "check" design of the Rob Roy tartan. If you weave it with 8 threads per color, or 20 threads per color, or 32 threads per color, it would still be the Rob Roy tartan.

In fact, here are images of three different versions of the Rob Roy tartan found in a pattern book from the first half of the 1800s. All three are from the same pattern book, same weavers, same weight and quality cloth. All that is different is the proportion of the thread count. The tartan is the same.

[davidg]

What defines the tartan is a combination of the pattern and colors, and if you change all the numbers in the thread count proportionally, the pattern (and therefore the tartan) remain the same.

I've never understood why anyone has any trouble with this concept. In a recipe 4 ounces of fat and 8 ounces of flour is seen to be proportional. In other words, you want more pastry and you size the recipe up! The thread count works the same way but some simply do not see it. 4 parts (threads) red to 8 parts green is the same as 8 parts red to 16 parts green. Perhaps we should have called it the THREADS (plural) count

[zazenkilter]

Sett size gives the formula that is made of thread count and colours used to make a tartan. once the formula is sett and registered, IT CAN NOT BE CHANGED and be what it was named as, to change the formula or sett, you will make a completely new tartan. the only way the set is changed is the ounce of the thread used to make the tartan. a 10 oz is smaller, therefore the tartan sett size is smaller then a 22 oz thread and so on...there is NO OTHER WAY TO change the sett size for a given named tartan. hope this helps you. You can always create a new tartan based on an original tartan, by change in the number of threads per colour and repeat the pattern, but if it is to close to the original tartan the Registry of Tartan, may not pass if for registration.

[davidlpope]

Sett size gives the formula that is made of thread count and colours used to make a tartan. once the formula is sett and registered, IT CAN NOT BE CHANGED and be what it was named as, to change the formula or sett, you will make a completely new tartan. the only way the set is changed is the ounce of the thread used to make the tartan. a 10 oz is smaller, therefore the tartan sett size is smaller then a 22 oz thread and so on...there is NO OTHER WAY TO change the sett size for a given named tartan. hope this helps you. You can always create a new tartan based on an original tartan, by change in the number of threads per colour and repeat the pattern, but if it is to close to the original tartan the Registry of Tartan, may not pass if for registration.

I think you're actually quite wrong about this. With a post count of 4 it might be wise to peruse past threads on the site and recognize the collected knowledge that is here. No one really likes a new know-it-all who hasn't established their bona fides yet. Oh yeah...welcome to XMarks.

[Paul Henry]

Sett size gives the formula that is made of thread count and colours used to make a tartan. once the formula is sett and registered, IT CAN NOT BE CHANGED and be what it was named as, to change the formula or sett, you will make a completely new tartan. the only way the set is changed is the ounce of the thread used to make the tartan. a 10 oz is smaller, therefore the tartan sett size is smaller then a 22 oz thread and so on...there is NO OTHER WAY TO change the sett size for a given named tartan. hope this helps you. You can always create a new tartan based on an original tartan, by change in the number of threads per colour and repeat the pattern, but if it is to close to the original tartan the Registry of Tartan, may not pass if for registration.

Yet again Gary you are posting misinformation, I am copying my post on the other thread , for your information and to alert others to you mistaken belief.

Gary , I afraid you are quite wrong with this, it is indeed very common for weavers to increase proportionally a thread count, and as David has said even sometime they can slightly alter the number of threads in a block of colour. It is exactly this that sometimes causes problems in identification of names ( as in a current thread by Barb).
But the bottom line is that a thread count IS a formula that can be increased to make extra large setts if required and still be called by the same name , and it does not affect the name ot any of the registration details.

And as David said please have a browse through the pages here before making blanket statements, I know you have been a tartan designer and kiltmaker, but we would still love to hear more about you, and of pictures of your kilts as well.

[zazenkilter]

Yes, do read David again, he said that some times when the thread count is changed to much IT IS HARD TO ID THE TARTAN.......
That was my point. when you change the thread count, you run the risk of change to the tartan as it was designed, and have in fact plagerised the tartan and make something that it not... a number of your mates have read what they please and not what was asked.
The question was not how do you redesign the sett, it was how to make it smaller, the wt of the thread used will do that with out changing the sett GO UP