Sett size??

[Spartan Tartan]

Spartan Tartan: I may not understand your "problem" well enough, but could you take the Michigan Up North threadcount from the SRT and estimate the sett size using an assumption like 48 threads per inch? I think that's pretty reasonable for medium weight tartan, plus or minus a bit for thread size, shrinkage, selvedge, etc.?

Suppose, for example, by doing that you come out with a 5" set, and you regard that as too small for your taste. Based on Paul's and Matt's comments, could you not then work with a weaver (perhaps through your kilt maker) and ask for an increase of 50% (7.5") or 100% (10") to obtain a more aesthetically pleasing sett?

I certainly could. And I would, I suppose. I just don't want to have little tiny checks for the tartan...I never thought about how to calculate the size. I'll give that a shot! Thanks!

[Spartan Tartan]

Thanks Graham!

[mookien]

Spartan Tartan: Let me know how it works out, or not. I'm curious from a "learning" perspective. I may find myself in your position someday, and if so, would like to have a way to proceed.

By the way (don't take my word for this, because I may be wrong), when you sum up the threads in the threadcount, use the actual number shown on the first and last entries, but you DOUBLE the number on all the interior entries. This assumes the endpoints are pivots and the sett is given by a traversal from one endpoint to the other and back again. Kind of like "The Hobbit" - "There And Back Again".

Good luck!

[zazenkilter]

Sett size gives the formula that is made of thread count and colours used to make a tartan. once the formula is sett and registered, IT CAN NOT BE CHANGED and be what it was named as, to change the formula or sett, you will make a completely new tartan. the only way the set is changed is the ounce of the thread used to make the tartan. a 10 oz is smaller, therefore the tartan sett size is smaller then aa 22 oz thread and so on...there is NO OTHER WAY TO change the sett size for a given named tartan. hope this helps you. You can always create a new tartan based on an original tartan, by change in the number of threads per colour and repeat the pattern, but if it is to close to the original tartan the Registry of Tartan, may not pass if for registration.

[davidlpope]

Sett size gives the formula that is made of thread count and colours used to make a tartan. once the formula is sett and registered, IT CAN NOT BE CHANGED and be what it was named as, to change the formula or sett, you will make a completely new tartan. the only way the set is changed is the ounce of the thread used to make the tartan. a 10 oz is smaller, therefore the tartan sett size is smaller then aa 22 oz thread and so on...there is NO OTHER WAY TO change the sett size for a given named tartan. hope this helps you. You can always create a new tartan based on an original tartan, by change in the number of threads per colour and repeat the pattern, but if it is to close to the original tartan the Registry of Tartan, may not pass if for registration.

I think you're actually quite wrong about this. With a post count of 4 it might be wise to peruse past threads on the site and recognize the collected knowledge that is here. No one really likes a new know-it-all who hasn't established their bona fides yet. Oh yeah...welcome to XMarks.

[mookien]

zazenkilter: Welcome to the blog from northern New Mexico! I used to live in Oregon (Ashland, Eugene, and Klamath Falls) and have visited Portland and Lincoln City a number of times. Beautiful country and coast.

Check out post #s 2, 13, and 14. I think it is fairly routine to ask a weaver to scale the sett size up and down, but you cannot change the ratios between the numbers in the threadcount. That changes the pattern of the sett. Others will correct me, if I am wrong.

[warrior]

Okay, let's see if I got a grasp of thread count and sett size. I am going to use the tartan I have selected for my first kilt, MacLeod Red wr496.
Thread count goes like this;

B8 R2 B2 R4 B22 R4 B2 R2 Y2 R2 B2 R32 B16 R8 G8 R32 G22 R16 B8 R4 Y4

Now the sett size for the above would be determined by the thickness of the individual thread times the number of total threads in the count, in this case 202.

Now for the sake of guestimating my sett size I shall make the assumption that a single thread is somewhere around 1mm in thickness. This results in a sett of 202mm give or take dependant upon the tightness of the weave. 20cm is roughly 2/3 of the imperial foot so roughly eight inches more or less.

Am I correct so far?

Now on to enlarging or reducing the size of the sett. I see two possible approaches, one workable and one not.
First one can increase the individual thread thickness which is actually an increase in thread diameter and weight. It seems this is a case of diminishing returns because as thread diameter goes up so does the per yard weight of the cloth. Your 16oz tank suddenly becomes a 32oz or greater with only fractional increases in sett width. To reduce the sett by reducing thread thickness has the opposite effect of reducing 16oz cloth to 8oz cloth. Not a workable solution for kilt material since our desired material weight is a fixed variable in this equation.
The much simpler method would be the increase the actual width of each stripe within the sett and leave the threads alone. For instance to double the size of the above tartan above the weaver would just set up the following thread count.

B16 R4 B4 R8 B44 R8 B4 R4 Y4 R4 B4 R64 B32 R16 G16 R64 G44 R32 B16 R8 Y8

With the same 1mm thread size we get exactly double sett width of 404mm or roughly 16 inches. Of course by not thickening the thread the per yard weight of the cloth remains the same. As long as the original thread count is multiplied or divided by the same integer for each and every color the pattern will remain the same in all areas save proportion.

So do I have my mind wrapped around the solution?

[davidlpope]

Okay, let's see if I got a grasp of thread count and sett size. I am going to use the tartan I have selected for my first kilt, MacLeod Red wr496.
Thread count goes like this;

B8 R2 B2 R4 B22 R4 B2 R2 Y2 R2 B2 R32 B16 R8 G8 R32 G22 R16 B8 R4 Y4

Now the sett size for the above would be determined by the thickness of the individual thread times the number of total threads in the count, in this case 202.

Now for the sake of guestimating my sett size I shall make the assumption that a single thread is somewhere around 1mm in thickness. This results in a sett of 202mm give or take dependant upon the tightness of the weave. 20cm is roughly 2/3 of the imperial foot so roughly eight inches more or less.

Am I correct so far?

Now on to enlarging or reducing the size of the sett. I see two possible approaches, one workable and one not.
First one can increase the individual thread thickness which is actually an increase in thread diameter and weight. It seems this is a case of diminishing returns because as thread diameter goes up so does the per yard weight of the cloth. Your 16oz tank suddenly becomes a 32oz or greater with only fractional increases in sett width. To reduce the sett by reducing thread thickness has the opposite effect of reducing 16oz cloth to 8oz cloth. Not a workable solution for kilt material since our desired material weight is a fixed variable in this equation.
The much simpler method would be the increase the actual width of each stripe within the sett and leave the threads alone. For instance to double the size of the above tartan above the weaver would just set up the following thread count.

B16 R4 B4 R8 B44 R8 B4 R4 Y4 R4 B4 R64 B32 R16 G16 R64 G44 R32 B16 R8 Y8

With the same 1mm thread size we get exactly double sett width of 404mm or roughly 16 inches. Of course by not thickening the thread the per yard weight of the cloth remains the same. As long as the original thread count is multiplied or divided by the same integer for each and every color the pattern will remain the same in all areas save proportion.

So do I have my mind wrapped around the solution?

Right. You can adjust the sett width of any tartan by multiplying all the individual threads by 1,2,3, etc.

The other option is to slightly vary the individual thread counts by non-consistent factors. This will result in thread counts which are not consistent with the "official thread count", but it will not make a practical difference. Despite the emphasis often placed on thread counts recorded with the STA, Tartan Register, etc., it's the ORDER and general PROPORTION of stripes in a tartan design that make it recognizable as a specific tartan.

For example, I recently had some Hunting MacMillan woven by Dalgliesh. In researching the thread count I would use for the run I compared the stock fabrics available from Lochcarron, HOE, Geoffery (Tailor) and Strathmore. NONE of the threadcounts for these specific fabrics was the same and NONE of them were the same as the "official" thread count recorded by the STA. What they did have in common was the order of the different colored stripes and their relative proportions- i.e. black stripe, yellow stripe, black stripe, broad blue stripe, narrow yellow stripe, medium blue stripe, narrow yellow stripe, etc., etc.





What's a bit unexpected is that the same mill may use a different thread count for the same tartan in different weight material. Compare the different MacFarlane tartans in the photo below:







Look closely at the center stripe pattern (black, red, white, green, white, red, black). This stripe series is quite narrow in the first kilt (ancient red clan tartan), but is much wider in the second (ancient green hunting tartan) kilt. Subtle differences in the proportions of the colored stripes, but not exactly the same. Yet, these first two kilts are made of Lochcarron fabric.

[warrior]

I thought that was the case since the numbers for me go right back to my years as a home builder and cabinet maker scaling from prints. All a matter of scale. Now I also fully understand the vagaries of modern manufacture since a 2×4 ain't 2"×4" nor is a sheet of 1/2 sheet goods a 1/2" unless it actually is.
With over 4000 different tartans from multiple mills in assorted versions it's amazing that we have such a fine selection of kilt makers available. I wouldn't have the patience.

[Paul Henry]

Sett size gives the formula that is made of thread count and colours used to make a tartan. once the formula is sett and registered, IT CAN NOT BE CHANGED and be what it was named as, to change the formula or sett, you will make a completely new tartan. the only way the set is changed is the ounce of the thread used to make the tartan. a 10 oz is smaller, therefore the tartan sett size is smaller then aa 22 oz thread and so on...there is NO OTHER WAY TO change the sett size for a given named tartan. hope this helps you. You can always create a new tartan based on an original tartan, by change in the number of threads per colour and repeat the pattern, but if it is to close to the original tartan the Registry of Tartan, may not pass if for registration.

Gary , I afraid you are quite wrong with this, it is indeed very common for weavers to increase proportionally a thread count, and as David has said even sometime they can slightly alter the number of threads in a block of colour. It is exactly this that sometimes causes problems in identification of names ( as in a current thread by Barb).
But the bottom line is that a thread count IS a formula that can be increased to make extra large setts if required and still be called by the same name , and it does not affect the name or any of the registration details.