Native Scots vs the scottish diaspora

[PatG]

Concerning success, I am certainly not as affluent as some of my forbears, but I am also not as prone to alcoholism, marital infidelity and overt and vicious racism as they were. That I consider my life to be a happy one is success enough for me.

Before we tread down the path of Romanticism, let's not forget that some of the Diaspora was kicked off the Auld Sod for being thieves and murderers and some of the Native Scots got to remain that way because they were on the landlord's side during the clearances. Neither is more or less noble or ignoble than the other. Shaking the family tree invariably brings down a few pieces of rotten fruit.

Let us also not forget that the kilt is the garment of what some would call mountain dwelling barbarian thieves and raiders (as my American neighbours say - Booyah!).

I wear the kilt because it sets me off from the rest of the boring and homogeneous modern world and it is comfortable to boot. My Scots roots are a bonus and not a pre-requisite. I wear my kilt appropriately to the occasion because that is what a gentleman does.

Finally, I reserve the right to look at my past through rose coloured glasses as long as I openly and honestly acknowledge the colour of those lenses.

Life is too short to not be filled with fun.

[ThistleDown]

I speak from talking to a couple of people from Canada holidaying in Florida whose parents had immigrated from Scotland. We dropped a few Scots words, expecting them to recognise them but the reaction was strange, almost hostile as if we had said something obscene and so we dropped it.
I wonder if the fact that the 'colonies' as they then were were dominated by Episcopalian English people meant that anyone of another religious persuasion and background was discriminated against. After all, this was the reason many left their homes in Ulster to escape the institutionalised persecution so prevalent there. It was not only Catholics who suffered, Presbyterians were equally discriminated against.

Yes, I understand. Media in Canada is influenced by its large and powerful southern neighbour. A little like Scotland. There are times when words I use or my form of speech produce blank or confused looks, as careful as I am about that.

Once again I can't speak of other parts of the world (the 'colonies', if you like) and would leave it to Father Bill to tell us about the eastern part of Canada; but I will say that in western Canada there appears to have been little or no discrimination between Christian sects in the latter half of the 19th and throughout the 20th centuries. Highlanders and Lowlanders alike. Perhaps there was a sense of relief in that, I don't know.

Western Canada did not receive the huge numbers of Ulstermen as did the Eastern US, but those who did settle here considered themselves to be Irish, not Scotch-Irish.

[opositive]

"I wear the kilt because it sets me off from the rest of the boring and homogeneous modern world and it is comfortable to boot."

i will sign on to this sentiment. i am adopted; so, "bloodlines" and ancestry do not mean much to me. my german father and french mother make me neither inclined to invade other countries nor eat gout inducing rich food. like most americans, i am a mish mosh of cultures and influences. than being said, since a tartan kilt is a source of cultural heritage and identity for a lot of folks, i want to learn about it and wear it respectfully. kilts are remarkably comfortable wearable pieces of art.

[seanachie]

This concept of "native Scots" is pretty interesting to me and I am not trying to split hairs and I understand the thread deals with those of both birth and ancestry. I do not know the specifics of UK citizenship laws, however, in the US someone born here retains citizenship. So an American can have Greek, Chinese, Colombian citizen parents and siblings.

I was in Inverness last year at this time. When I went to the local Catholic Church there were many Poles, and they had children. If those children are born in Scotland are they not then Scottish? I also ate at the Italian pizza place right by the railroad station, and while waiting for a table fell into conversation with a few of the wait staff who were not native born if they were to marry native Scots and have children are they not then Scots?

The reason I ask this is how this will impact the culture over a period of time as it has in places like America and how that will potentially change the definition of how Scottish culture will be defined.

Because of the weird boundaries I live a stones throw from a few neighborhoods that are actually Los Angeles city. It would take me maybe ten minutes or so to drive from my home to areas where English would be a real rarity and the entire culture, food, shops etc would be very different from the culture I grew up in Boston. Both in America but very different.

[ThistleDown]

Yes, even before the large influx of 'settlers' from all over in the past fifty years, Scotland was a land of incomers. That constant in- and out-flow of blood made the culture we have today, and continuing the flow will further enrich us in the future.

Personally I don't understand the title of this thread since I know of very, very few Scots who reject the complement when the kilt is worn by non-Scots. They may be a bit soured that their own pipe bands are consistently beaten by those of other lands, but they see that as a criticism of themselves and don't cry out that the pipes should only be played at home. That's what we get for having such fine national garb and such a blood-stirring musical instrument. Others want them, too

[Whidbey78]

In response to the OP: Though there are many Scottish immigrants and descendants around the world, going back several centuries, who did extremely well for themselves and/or did great things for their respective countries, by and large I would think that the number of them most would call prosperous, influential, important, etc., is probably about the same, percentage-wise, as most other groups from the same general part of the world. It's probably very comparable to the number of accomplished English, French, Germans, etc. Perhaps Scots(and their descendants) fared better than average, perhaps it's just that we notice them more readily because we're looking for them. I really can't say.

On the "side topic" about honoring Scottish heritage, ancestors' native land, or simply honoring and showing respect for Scotland (regardless of ancestry): If someone from outside Scotland wants to wear a kilt out of respect for, or in honor of, their heritage, more power to them. If he wants to wear it because he respects, admires or just enjoys the country and its culture (or even a romantic idea he may have of it), that's cool too. If he wears it simply because he participates in Highland Games, or finds it to be a very comfortable garment, or likes the look of the kilt, or because he wishes to identify with another culture (his ancestors culture or not), that's his right too. If he opted to wear a Starfleet uniform everyday, who's to stop him?

Scots living in Scotland don't seem to get why people from elsewhere do it, and that's fine. I think we can all respect that position. They don't see it as an "honor" that others wear the kilt. I get that. They probably shouldn't. We may see it as flattery, but they don't. They should also not take it as an insult. In some ways it is a bit insulting, but it's unintentional and the offending activity is done with good intentions. It's simply a case of one party feeling a connection to another place, people and culture-- and expressing it in their own way-- while the other party doesn't feel the same connection and/or doesn't understand why the connection is felt.

I encountered the same thing when overseas in the Navy. I would meet people who were absolutely fascinated, even obsessed, with American culture, or what they interpreted it to be. Sometimes they seemed almost like Americans who put on a foreign accent. Most of the time, though, they seemed more like actors who didn't research the part and just put on the costume and took the stage. In both cases I knew they really couldn't understand being an American anymore than I could understand being Saudi, Filipino, Brazilian, or Greek. I wasn't insulted, or flattered. They felt a strong draw toward my culture and acted on it based on what they could learn (or chose to learn) about it. That's not to say that it wasn't irritating at times. I couldn't even explain to them that their McDonald's, Nikes and Coca-Cola were not quite the same as ours. No biggie. World keeps spinning, right?

I'm roughly 1/4 Irish, 1/4 Scottish, and half Welsh. I'm sure there are Englishmen, Normans, Vikings and others in the family tree as well. Heck, I could be one of the .5% that are supposedly descendants of Ghengis Khan! But, that's not why I choose to wear a kilt. I just like it. I respect the people, culture, and country it represents, but that had little influence on my choice. (I'd be lying if I said it had no influence though.) I tried it...I liked it. I kept doing it. No justification needed. It's just what I choose to do. It's not a statement...it's what I wear. No offense intended, no apologies needed.


Just my two cents, and not meant to be insulting or taken badly by anyone.

[Sir William]

...That's what we [Scots] get for having such fine national garb and such a blood-stirring musical instrument. Others want them, too

Indeed!

And happy I am to be descended from such a great people!

[Jock Scot]

In response to the OP: Though there are many Scottish immigrants and descendants around the world, going back several centuries, who did extremely well for themselves and/or did great things for their respective countries, by and large I would think that the number of them most would call prosperous, influential, important, etc., is probably about the same, percentage-wise, as most other groups from the same general part of the world. It's probably very comparable to the number of accomplished English, French, Germans, etc. Perhaps Scots(and their descendants) fared better than average, perhaps it's just that we notice them more readily because we're looking for them. I really can't say.

On the "side topic" about honoring Scottish heritage, ancestors' native land, or simply honoring and showing respect for Scotland (regardless of ancestry): If someone from outside Scotland wants to wear a kilt out of respect for, or in honor of, their heritage, more power to them. If he wants to wear it because he respects, admires or just enjoys the country and its culture (or even a romantic idea he may have of it), that's cool too. If he wears it simply because he participates in Highland Games, or finds it to be a very comfortable garment, or likes the look of the kilt, or because he wishes to identify with another culture (his ancestors culture or not), that's his right too. If he opted to wear a Starfleet uniform everyday, who's to stop him?

Scots living in Scotland don't seem to get why people from elsewhere do it, and that's fine. I think we can all respect that position. They don't see it as an "honor" that others wear the kilt. I get that. They probably shouldn't. We may see it as flattery, but they don't. They should also not take it as an insult. In some ways it is a bit insulting, but it's unintentional and the offending activity is done with good intentions. It's simply a case of one party feeling a connection to another place, people and culture-- and expressing it in their own way-- while the other party doesn't feel the same connection and/or doesn't understand why the connection is felt.

I encountered the same thing when overseas in the Navy. I would meet people who were absolutely fascinated, even obsessed, with American culture, or what they interpreted it to be. Sometimes they seemed almost like Americans who put on a foreign accent. Most of the time, though, they seemed more like actors who didn't research the part and just put on the costume and took the stage. In both cases I knew they really couldn't understand being an American anymore than I could understand being Saudi, Filipino, Brazilian, or Greek. I wasn't insulted, or flattered. They felt a strong draw toward my culture and acted on it based on what they could learn (or chose to learn) about it. That's not to say that it wasn't irritating at times. I couldn't even explain to them that their McDonald's, Nikes and Coca-Cola were not quite the same as ours. No biggie. World keeps spinning, right?

I'm roughly 1/4 Irish, 1/4 Scottish, and half Welsh. I'm sure there are Englishmen, Normans, Vikings and others in the family tree as well. Heck, I could be one of the .5% that are supposedly descendants of Ghengis Khan! But, that's not why I choose to wear a kilt. I just like it. I respect the people, culture, and country it represents, but that had little influence on my choice. (I'd be lying if I said it had no influence though.) I tried it...I liked it. I kept doing it. No justification needed. It's just what I choose to do. It's not a statement...it's what I wear. No offense intended, no apologies needed.


Just my two cents, and not meant to be insulting or taken badly by anyone.

A well thought out post, if I may say so and I for one, take not one bit of offence.

[Peter Crowe]

In response to the OP: Though there are many Scottish immigrants and descendants around the world, going back several centuries, who did extremely well for themselves and/or did great things for their respective countries, by and large I would think that the number of them most would call prosperous, influential, important, etc., is probably about the same, percentage-wise, as most other groups from the same general part of the world. It's probably very comparable to the number of accomplished English, French, Germans, etc. Perhaps Scots(and their descendants) fared better than average, perhaps it's just that we notice them more readily because we're looking for them. I really can't say.

On the "side topic" about honoring Scottish heritage, ancestors' native land, or simply honoring and showing respect for Scotland (regardless of ancestry): If someone from outside Scotland wants to wear a kilt out of respect for, or in honor of, their heritage, more power to them. If he wants to wear it because he respects, admires or just enjoys the country and its culture (or even a romantic idea he may have of it), that's cool too. If he wears it simply because he participates in Highland Games, or finds it to be a very comfortable garment, or likes the look of the kilt, or because he wishes to identify with another culture (his ancestors culture or not), that's his right too. If he opted to wear a Starfleet uniform everyday, who's to stop him?

Scots living in Scotland don't seem to get why people from elsewhere do it, and that's fine. I think we can all respect that position. They don't see it as an "honor" that others wear the kilt. I get that. They probably shouldn't. We may see it as flattery, but they don't. They should also not take it as an insult. In some ways it is a bit insulting, but it's unintentional and the offending activity is done with good intentions. It's simply a case of one party feeling a connection to another place, people and culture-- and expressing it in their own way-- while the other party doesn't feel the same connection and/or doesn't understand why the connection is felt.

I encountered the same thing when overseas in the Navy. I would meet people who were absolutely fascinated, even obsessed, with American culture, or what they interpreted it to be. Sometimes they seemed almost like Americans who put on a foreign accent. Most of the time, though, they seemed more like actors who didn't research the part and just put on the costume and took the stage. In both cases I knew they really couldn't understand being an American anymore than I could understand being Saudi, Filipino, Brazilian, or Greek. I wasn't insulted, or flattered. They felt a strong draw toward my culture and acted on it based on what they could learn (or chose to learn) about it. That's not to say that it wasn't irritating at times. I couldn't even explain to them that their McDonald's, Nikes and Coca-Cola were not quite the same as ours. No biggie. World keeps spinning, right?

I'm roughly 1/4 Irish, 1/4 Scottish, and half Welsh. I'm sure there are Englishmen, Normans, Vikings and others in the family tree as well. Heck, I could be one of the .5% that are supposedly descendants of Ghengis Khan! But, that's not why I choose to wear a kilt. I just like it. I respect the people, culture, and country it represents, but that had little influence on my choice. (I'd be lying if I said it had no influence though.) I tried it...I liked it. I kept doing it. No justification needed. It's just what I choose to do. It's not a statement...it's what I wear. No offense intended, no apologies needed.


Just my two cents, and not meant to be insulting or taken badly by anyone.

To echo Jock Scot's post, well stated Whidbey 78

[Sir William]

I encountered the same thing when overseas in the Navy. I would meet people who were absolutely fascinated, even obsessed, with American culture, or what they interpreted it to be. Sometimes they seemed almost like Americans who put on a foreign accent. Most of the time, though, they seemed more like actors who didn't research the part and just put on the costume and took the stage. In both cases I knew they really couldn't understand being an American anymore than I could understand being Saudi, Filipino, Brazilian, or Greek. I wasn't insulted, or flattered. They felt a strong draw toward my culture and acted on it based on what they could learn (or chose to learn) about it. That's not to say that it wasn't irritating at times. I couldn't even explain to them that their McDonald's, Nikes and Coca-Cola were not quite the same as ours. No biggie. World keeps spinning, right?

I've had the same thoughts as well when I read this thread. I've encountered many people around the world trying to be "American" based on what they'd seen in American movies and TV. I've often been amused, though rarely offended, by their interpretation of "my" culture. However, I suspect that most people don't like seeing how they are seen by others, even with the best of intentions, as it is usually a bad caricature.

In this regard, I can understand Jock's (and Scots in general) attitude toward outsiders wearing a kilt. I can also understand the interest in donning a kilt when visiting Scotland, or a cowboy hat and boots when visiting Texas.

But if anyone is to blame for non-Scots wanting to wear a kilt, its Sir Walter Scott who convinced King George IV to don one on his visit to Scotland in 1822. Its a bit late to change things now.