An Open Question for 'Jock Scot' (and Scots)

[BCAC]

I really tried to keep out of this thread, honestly. This is the 8th time I've typed out a reply only to hestitate in sending it for fear of upsetting people through my misunderstanding. There is soooo much to say. I will try to keep it short. On the whole, I agree with Jock's views.

Being en Ex-pat myself, that side of things I understand very well. One thing about Ex-pats I don't understand is how they can take another Nationality. That is one thing that I just couldn't do.

THE thing that I just don't get is that there are some people who were born in the USA with Scottish connections a few generations away, and they spend pots (and pots) of money to buy (only) bespoke highland garments (kilts, jackets etc(and are a bit "snobbish" about this)), some even spend more and more pots of money to get official documents signed to make them "someone" in their clan (to which they are legitimately entitled). These people give the impression that, from the bottom of their heart (and their wallet) they desperately want to be Scottish. Do these people know that no matter how much money they spend or how many documents they pay for they will NEVER be a Scotsman?

I don't want to upset anyone (which is why I tried to stay out of this thread) but a lot of these people seem to be looking for an excuse for wearing their bespoke kilts, kinda like my gggggggggggggrandfather came over from the Isle of Muckle, and he was someone in the clan MacFudge, so I'm wearing this and getting the right documents signed to be someone also in the clan MacFudge to honor him.

If you want to wear the kilt, then wear it! You don't need an excuse. Jock will always tell you how it's done in the Highlands.

I don't see the need to delve deeply into my ancestry, either. I'm Scottish, my parents are Scottish, my grandparents are Scottish. This I know because I lived among them. I don't need to know any further. Maybe there are some strange "roots" in the family tree somewhere long ago, but I just don't feel the need to know (much less the need to "honor" these possible long lost ancestors).

Another thing that comes to mind. You're all Scottish-American, or Scots-Irish-American or something-American. There don't seem to be many Americans around (but then again, if there are any, they probably don't come on this site).

Maybe you have to be in this situation (as explained by Rocky) to understand that part of it.

I'm sorry if I upset or angered anyone, this is simply my few words on a difficult subject hard to understand. Maybe we'll all have to agree to disagree and perhaps it would be better for everyone if we stopped trying to understand!

[Sir William]

THE thing that I just don't get is that there are some people who were born in the USA with Scottish connections a few generations away, and they spend pots (and pots) of money to buy (only) bespoke highland garments (kilts, jackets etc(and are a bit "snobbish" about this)), some even spend more and more pots of money to get official documents signed to make them "someone" in their clan (to which they are legitimately entitled). These people give the impression that, from the bottom of their heart (and their wallet) they desperately want to be Scottish. Do these people know that no matter how much money they spend or how many documents they pay for they will NEVER be a Scotsman?

Short answer...no!

Long answer: In their minds they are Scottish-American, which is the best of both worlds. They are annoying to us as well. The only thing worse are those among them who aspire to the nobility. For a country that parted ways with Britain in a rather nasty way, we have this unfathomable interest in the Royal family.

[Brett]

Jock, I would imagine few answered "fun" to the question of why we "play at being scots"? early on because it was simply the first and most obvious reason.

Harley riders dress up like pirates because it's fun, my kid wears his power ranger costume to the mall because it's fun, I wore a davey crocket coon skin cap and buckskin jacket as a child because it was fun.

Let's be clear non-scots and native scots alike wear the kilt first and foremost because it's fun. It makes going to a dress-up occasion or even to the pub a little more festive. I admire those who wear the kilt daily as it would seem to inject a little fun into everyday life.

If a native Scot tells me he wears a kilt for any other reason other than "it's fun" I might question his sanity. That would include pipers as well, as I can't imagine anyone deciding to learn the pipes and wear a kilt for any other reason than fun.

[SlackerDrummer]

I really tried to keep out of this thread, honestly. This is the 8th time I've typed out a reply only to hestitate in sending it for fear of upsetting people through my misunderstanding.

I for one found nothing the slightest bit offensive in your post.

Another thing that comes to mind. You're all Scottish-American, or Scots-Irish-American or something-American. There don't seem to be many Americans around (but then again, if there are any, they probably don't come on this site).

I think this perspective is one of the most difficult bridges we try to cross on this forum. Would you say that the culture is significantly different in the South of France, where you are now, from that of the Highlands of Scotland? I note the distance from Nimes to Inverness to be just over 1000 miles. How many cultural differences in that span? Highland Scot? Lowland Scot? English? Parisian? From where I grew up in North Carolina that same distance would get me up to the northeast corner of the United States or, heading west, about halfway across the country.

This sheer size difference makes,..., well, a difference. Scotland will fit into the United States more than 125 times. It will fit nearly twice into my home state of North Carolina, which has nearly twice the population. If you accept that there are differences between Highland and Lowland Scots, surely it must be more than evident that there are probably differences between Eastern North Carolinians (by the beautiful coastline) and Western North Carolinians (in the beautiful mountains), and then it must be really, really evident that there must be cultural differences between those same North Carolinians and the rest of the United States. We share a national identity, but the very idea that Americans could share a cultural identity is downright silly.

Additionally, much of North American is not populated by families who have been here for many generations. Sure there are parts of the country where this is true, but there are a great number of people who's immigrant ancestors came just last century. And the way the country was settled, even from the beginning, there were pockets of people from the same country living together. They lived in the same neighborhoods in cities or started churches in more remote, rural areas, continuing parts of their cultural heritage. Just because by the time our ancestors arrived, the people living in Scotland no longer thought of themselves as Picts, Normans, etc., doesn't mean that those who left Scotland no longer thought of themselves as Scottish. You yourself say you couldn't do it. So they saw themselves as Germans, Irishmen, Italians. And their children then though of themselves as German-Americans (i.e. Americans of German descent) and so on.

[creagdhubh]

I for one found nothing the slightest bit offensive in your post.



I think this perspective is one of the most difficult bridges we try to cross on this forum. Would you say that the culture is significantly different in the South of France, where you are now, from that of the Highlands of Scotland? I note the distance from Nimes to Inverness to be just over 1000 miles. How many cultural differences in that span? Highland Scot? Lowland Scot? English? Parisian? From where I grew up in North Carolina that same distance would get me up to the northeast corner of the United States or, heading west, about halfway across the country.

This sheer size difference makes,..., well, a difference. Scotland will fit into the United States more than 125 times. It will fit nearly twice into my home state of North Carolina, which has nearly twice the population. If you accept that there are differences between Highland and Lowland Scots, surely it must be more than evident that there are probably differences between Eastern North Carolinians (by the beautiful coastline) and Western North Carolinians (in the beautiful mountains), and then it must be really, really evident that there must be cultural differences between those same North Carolinians and the rest of the United States. We share a national identity, but the very idea that Americans could share a cultural identity is downright silly.

Additionally, much of North American is not populated by families who have been here for many generations. Sure there are parts of the country where this is true, but there are a great number of people who's immigrant ancestors came just last century. And the way the country was settled, even from the beginning, there were pockets of people from the same country living together. They lived in the same neighborhoods in cities or started churches in more remote, rural areas, continuing parts of their cultural heritage. Just because by the time our ancestors arrived, the people living in Scotland no longer thought of themselves as Picts, Normans, etc., doesn't mean that those who left Scotland no longer thought of themselves as Scottish. You yourself say you couldn't do it. So they saw themselves as Germans, Irishmen, Italians. And their children then though of themselves as German-Americans (i.e. Americans of German descent) and so on.

Very well put, Kenneth. Hope you are well mate, as well as your adorable wee laddie!

Kind regards,

[BCAC]

I for one found nothing the slightest bit offensive in your post.



I think this perspective is one of the most difficult bridges we try to cross on this forum. Would you say that the culture is significantly different in the South of France, where you are now, from that of the Highlands of Scotland? I note the distance from Nimes to Inverness to be just over 1000 miles. How many cultural differences in that span? Highland Scot? Lowland Scot? English? Parisian? From where I grew up in North Carolina that same distance would get me up to the northeast corner of the United States or, heading west, about halfway across the country.

This sheer size difference makes,..., well, a difference. Scotland will fit into the United States more than 125 times. It will fit nearly twice into my home state of North Carolina, which has nearly twice the population. If you accept that there are differences between Highland and Lowland Scots, surely it must be more than evident that there are probably differences between Eastern North Carolinians (by the beautiful coastline) and Western North Carolinians (in the beautiful mountains), and then it must be really, really evident that there must be cultural differences between those same North Carolinians and the rest of the United States. We share a national identity, but the very idea that Americans could share a cultural identity is downright silly.

Additionally, much of North American is not populated by families who have been here for many generations. Sure there are parts of the country where this is true, but there are a great number of people who's immigrant ancestors came just last century. And the way the country was settled, even from the beginning, there were pockets of people from the same country living together. They lived in the same neighborhoods in cities or started churches in more remote, rural areas, continuing parts of their cultural heritage. Just because by the time our ancestors arrived, the people living in Scotland no longer thought of themselves as Picts, Normans, etc., doesn't mean that those who left Scotland no longer thought of themselves as Scottish. You yourself say you couldn't do it. So they saw themselves as Germans, Irishmen, Italians. And their children then though of themselves as German-Americans (i.e. Americans of German descent) and so on.

You might just have hit the nail right on the head, there.

I've lived in France for a while now and it's difficult here as well to find someone who will say he's FRENCH first and foremost. They're all fiercly proud of their region or town but most of them have an independance mouvement (even the regions smack in the middle of the country).

One instance comes to mind. When the French football team won the world cup in 1998 there were thousands (if not millions) of people on the main street in Paris to celebrate and in the middle there's this one guy waving his Brittany flag. He couldn't even be French that day!

I was just thinking that someone should say "I'm from xland (wherever xland may be), my parents are from xland, my grandparents are from xland so I'm a proud xlander"

[artificer]

You might just have hit the nail right on the head, there.

I've lived in France for a while now and it's difficult here as well to find someone who will say he's FRENCH first and foremost. They're all fiercly proud of their region or town but most of them have an indipendance mouvement (even the regions smack in the middle of the country).

One instance comes to mind. When the French football team won the world cup in 1998 there were thousand (if not millions) of people on the main street in Paris to celebrate and in the middle there's this one guy waving his Brittany flag. He couldn't even be French that day!

No need to worry about that situation in 2010, huh?

ith:

[BCAC]

No need to worry about that situation in 2010, huh?

ith:

You're right, of course, but if I say that to a Frenchman he will reply that they have at least won it once (inferring that my country (Scotland) have NEVER won it).

[artificer]

You're right, of course, but if I say that to a Frenchman he will reply that they have at least won it once (inferring that my country (Scotland) have NEVER won it).

Well, to win you are first required to qualify...

Seriously though, what is it with Scottish Football?

ith:

[BCAC]

Scott,

This is sooo far off topic that it's unreal!