An Open Question for 'Jock Scot' (and Scots)

[Woodsheal]

What's really funny in all of this is, that if you took all of the people of Scots descent in the USA, the percentage of them that display any interest in celebrating their Scottish heritage would be miniscule - probably 1% or less. (Don't know about Canada and Australia.)
Kilt-ownership and other manifestations of "playing at being Scots" are actually quite rare, given the vast numbers of Scottish descendents in this country. Most simply don't care and couldn't be bothered. The Scots have simply been here too long to embrace any "hyphenated American" identity, unlike later arrivals like the Irish, Italians, Poles, etc. Who ever hears anything about "Scottish-Americans", or "English-Americans" for that matter? These groups have been on the continent so long they are now simply Americans.
Compare the paltry membership in US "Scottish Societies" to the much more active organizations like the Ancient Order of Hibernians, or the Sons of Italy!

This forum gives a false impression. The people Jock is struggling so hard to understand are quite few and far between....

[Steve Barclay]

I was going to start a seperate thread about this, but I think it has some relevance here- I watched a TV show last night featuring the Glaswegian comedian Billy Connolly (who will need no introduction to most of you I'm sure), it's a travel show he presents and he was in Nova Scotia and of course he attended a Highland Games (I can't remember which one guys, sorry ). Anyway, though he loved the pipe bands he seemed at first uncomfortable with the amount of kilts on show, but not because the wearers were Canadians, he admitted than when he was growing up in Glasgow in the 1950's kilts were looked down upon, and that anyone who wore one was called "kiltie-kiltie cold bum"!! He also said that he still feels wary of anyone wearing one, though photographic evidence of the man himself sporting one on several occasions is very much in abundance as a simple Google search will testify. He then went on to interview one of the organisers and asked "why all this Scottishness?", and when met with the answer about honouring one's forefathers his reply was "I have no problem with that!".

Also- I read the autobiography of the rock bass guitarist Jack Bruce (another Glaswegian,formerly of the band Cream,) a while back, and in it he talks about a band he played in in the early-1960's (of Englishmen, having moved to London,) where the "gimmick" was that they all wore kilts, except Jack refused, as "that's Highlander dress!!"

[creagdhubh]

What's really funny in all of this is, that if you took all of the people of Scots descent in the USA, the percentage of them that display any interest in celebrating their Scottish heritage would be miniscule - probably 1% or less. (Don't know about Canada and Australia.)
Kilt-ownership and other manifestations of "playing at being Scots" are actually quite rare, given the vast numbers of Scottish descendents in this country. Most simply don't care and couldn't be bothered. The Scots have simply been here too long to embrace any "hyphenated American" identity, unlike later arrivals like the Irish, Italians, Poles, etc. Who ever hears anything about "Scottish-Americans", or "English-Americans" for that matter? These groups have been on the continent so long they are now simply Americans.
Compare the paltry membership in US "Scottish Societies" to the much more active organizations like the Ancient Order of Hibernians, or the Sons of Italy!

This forum gives a false impression. The people Jock is struggling so hard to understand are quite few and far between....

Excellent point!!!

[Jock Scot]

It so happened that I found it difficult to sleep last night and took to reading the foreword to Robert Bain, The Clans and Tartans of Scotland (Glasgow: Fontana/Collins, 1985), written by The Right Honourable the Countess of Erroll 27th Hereditary Lord High Constable, the late head of Scottish Chivalry and holder of the office which has precedence over every hereditary honour in Scotland after the Blood Royal (p.6).

This should produce some reassurance for our friends from North America. The Countess wrote, p.7

"... all the bearers of great Scottish Names share alike in their ancient traditions. It is this brotherhood ... which links all Scots together and is so marked a feature of our countrymen wherever they may be. [my emphasis] We are all one family of Scots ..."

Later Margaret O. MacDougall, writing on the dress of the Highlander, affirms that "those who wear tartan and the Highland dress are helping to preserve the costume of our Scottish ancestors." (p. 31).

One brotherhood - wherever they may be - preserving the traditions and costume [sic] of our ancestors.

That, friends, comes not from North America but from Scotland and is a note on which I think it is far better to dwell.

The cynical amongst us would just assume that many castles in Scotland are in need of a new roof and Dollars are very handy.

On that note count me out. I have tried to explain a point of view and many of you have tried to explain your angle on this seemingly difficult subject. I can add no more and I am tired and I am missing posts that require attention and answers and I see no resolution to it. You carry on without me if you so wish.

[Livingston]

Also.

I think we all should descend upon Jocks home, having plotting the whole invasion with the help of Mrs. Jock such that he has no reasonable means of excape, and squire him off to some stream in the vicinity and catch some fish. Then we go back to his house, broil the the fish, drink some whisky, and tell lies.

Good idea. Wait a minute, I'm allergic to fish, what will I eat???

Ok an invasion is in the offing , please, PLEASE, and thrice PLEASE, promise me that GRANT is not coming!

Must check the razor wire, check the mine field, booby traps, ammunition stocks, food , water----no we have plenty of that, whisky MUST GET MORE WHISKY, check the zero on the field gun, hummmm plenty to do!

Alan, if you can, swing that boat by here and pick me up. We might be able to ensure he of the rubber chicken misses the boat and therefore does not endanger the safety of any single malt or gin we bring as provisions. I know that Jock would like to finally take possesion what's left of the case I've been holding for him.

[Sir William]

THE thing that I just don't get is that there are some people who were born in the USA with Scottish connections a few generations away, and they spend pots (and pots) of money to buy (only) bespoke highland garments (kilts, jackets etc(and are a bit "snobbish" about this)), some even spend more and more pots of money to get official documents signed to make them "someone" in their clan (to which they are legitimately entitled). These people give the impression that, from the bottom of their heart (and their wallet) they desperately want to be Scottish. Do these people know that no matter how much money they spend or how many documents they pay for they will NEVER be a Scotsman?

Short answer...no!

Long answer: In their minds they are Scottish-American, which is the best of both worlds. They are annoying to us as well. The only thing worse are those among them who aspire to the nobility. For a country that parted ways with Britain in a rather nasty way, we have this unfathomable interest in the Royal family.

[Brett]

Jock, I would imagine few answered "fun" to the question of why we "play at being scots"? early on because it was simply the first and most obvious reason.

Harley riders dress up like pirates because it's fun, my kid wears his power ranger costume to the mall because it's fun, I wore a davey crocket coon skin cap and buckskin jacket as a child because it was fun.

Let's be clear non-scots and native scots alike wear the kilt first and foremost because it's fun. It makes going to a dress-up occasion or even to the pub a little more festive. I admire those who wear the kilt daily as it would seem to inject a little fun into everyday life.

If a native Scot tells me he wears a kilt for any other reason other than "it's fun" I might question his sanity. That would include pipers as well, as I can't imagine anyone deciding to learn the pipes and wear a kilt for any other reason than fun.

[SlackerDrummer]

I really tried to keep out of this thread, honestly. This is the 8th time I've typed out a reply only to hestitate in sending it for fear of upsetting people through my misunderstanding.

I for one found nothing the slightest bit offensive in your post.

Another thing that comes to mind. You're all Scottish-American, or Scots-Irish-American or something-American. There don't seem to be many Americans around (but then again, if there are any, they probably don't come on this site).

I think this perspective is one of the most difficult bridges we try to cross on this forum. Would you say that the culture is significantly different in the South of France, where you are now, from that of the Highlands of Scotland? I note the distance from Nimes to Inverness to be just over 1000 miles. How many cultural differences in that span? Highland Scot? Lowland Scot? English? Parisian? From where I grew up in North Carolina that same distance would get me up to the northeast corner of the United States or, heading west, about halfway across the country.

This sheer size difference makes,..., well, a difference. Scotland will fit into the United States more than 125 times. It will fit nearly twice into my home state of North Carolina, which has nearly twice the population. If you accept that there are differences between Highland and Lowland Scots, surely it must be more than evident that there are probably differences between Eastern North Carolinians (by the beautiful coastline) and Western North Carolinians (in the beautiful mountains), and then it must be really, really evident that there must be cultural differences between those same North Carolinians and the rest of the United States. We share a national identity, but the very idea that Americans could share a cultural identity is downright silly.

Additionally, much of North American is not populated by families who have been here for many generations. Sure there are parts of the country where this is true, but there are a great number of people who's immigrant ancestors came just last century. And the way the country was settled, even from the beginning, there were pockets of people from the same country living together. They lived in the same neighborhoods in cities or started churches in more remote, rural areas, continuing parts of their cultural heritage. Just because by the time our ancestors arrived, the people living in Scotland no longer thought of themselves as Picts, Normans, etc., doesn't mean that those who left Scotland no longer thought of themselves as Scottish. You yourself say you couldn't do it. So they saw themselves as Germans, Irishmen, Italians. And their children then though of themselves as German-Americans (i.e. Americans of German descent) and so on.

[BCAC]

It so happened that I found it difficult to sleep last night and took to reading the foreword to Robert Bain, The Clans and Tartans of Scotland (Glasgow: Fontana/Collins, 1985), written by The Right Honourable the Countess of Erroll 27th Hereditary Lord High Constable, the late head of Scottish Chivalry and holder of the office which has precedence over every hereditary honour in Scotland after the Blood Royal (p.6).

This should produce some reassurance for our friends from North America. The Countess wrote, p.7

"... all the bearers of great Scottish Names share alike in their ancient traditions. It is this brotherhood ... which links all Scots together and is so marked a feature of our countrymen wherever they may be. [my emphasis] We are all one family of Scots ..."

Later Margaret O. MacDougall, writing on the dress of the Highlander, affirms that "those who wear tartan and the Highland dress are helping to preserve the costume of our Scottish ancestors." (p. 31).

One brotherhood - wherever they may be - preserving the traditions and costume [sic] of our ancestors.

That, friends, comes not from North America but from Scotland and is a note on which I think it is far better to dwell.

This is fine for the Ex-pat himself, but in My opinion, NOT for his friggin' ggggggggrandson!

[creagdhubh]

I for one found nothing the slightest bit offensive in your post.



I think this perspective is one of the most difficult bridges we try to cross on this forum. Would you say that the culture is significantly different in the South of France, where you are now, from that of the Highlands of Scotland? I note the distance from Nimes to Inverness to be just over 1000 miles. How many cultural differences in that span? Highland Scot? Lowland Scot? English? Parisian? From where I grew up in North Carolina that same distance would get me up to the northeast corner of the United States or, heading west, about halfway across the country.

This sheer size difference makes,..., well, a difference. Scotland will fit into the United States more than 125 times. It will fit nearly twice into my home state of North Carolina, which has nearly twice the population. If you accept that there are differences between Highland and Lowland Scots, surely it must be more than evident that there are probably differences between Eastern North Carolinians (by the beautiful coastline) and Western North Carolinians (in the beautiful mountains), and then it must be really, really evident that there must be cultural differences between those same North Carolinians and the rest of the United States. We share a national identity, but the very idea that Americans could share a cultural identity is downright silly.

Additionally, much of North American is not populated by families who have been here for many generations. Sure there are parts of the country where this is true, but there are a great number of people who's immigrant ancestors came just last century. And the way the country was settled, even from the beginning, there were pockets of people from the same country living together. They lived in the same neighborhoods in cities or started churches in more remote, rural areas, continuing parts of their cultural heritage. Just because by the time our ancestors arrived, the people living in Scotland no longer thought of themselves as Picts, Normans, etc., doesn't mean that those who left Scotland no longer thought of themselves as Scottish. You yourself say you couldn't do it. So they saw themselves as Germans, Irishmen, Italians. And their children then though of themselves as German-Americans (i.e. Americans of German descent) and so on.

Very well put, Kenneth. Hope you are well mate, as well as your adorable wee laddie!

Kind regards,