The Kilt's use in Irish Nationalism

[hkjrb623]

The Irish have been playing the bagpipes for as long as the Scottish (which has been well docummented in history).

I'm aware of this, but they currently play the great highland pipes and play Scot tunes. That really doesn't scream "Irish" to me. I'm not really knocking it if it seems that way, I just find it a little strange. I have Irish family as well and have considered getting a saffron kilt much to the dismay of my wife(She thinks the color is hideous). I also realize that marching with uilleann pipes would be almost impossible.

[Jock Scot]

Gael Ridire.

With the greatest of respect what I happen to think about who wears the kilt from a Scots point of view is a side issue on this thread and on the whole we have all stuck mainly to Irish issues. The Scots have inevitably come into the conversation from time to time and yes I have added a comment or six about some Scots point when appropriate, but I think mainly we have all stuck to the Irish kilt question-----even me.

Macspadger can and must speak for himself, but he and I do seem to be ploughing a similar furrow and speaking again, now, for myself yes indeed the "cat is out of the bag" as far as world kilt wearing goes. I have gone on record in the past and I think Macspadger has also made the point, as have others, on this thread, it is some of the reasoning by many here for justifying wearing the kilt that seems rather tenuous to some of us. I for one do not understand it. Finally to try to get back to the Irish slant, particularly as the "modern" kilt is rather less connected to modern and old Ireland than many might think , it is those justifications that are to me, on the whole, rather thin. Others are entitled to differ and I respect that.

Before the whole website bursts into flames, I am not -----nor is Macspadger or anyone else who has posted here on this thread is being anti Irish, anti Irish wearing the kilt, anti anyone wearing the kilt, apart from my one post where I made someone aware of a school of thought. Mostly the point of this thread is the Irish, bless them, Irish nationalism connected to the kilt, a tricky subject that has been well and sympathetically discussed in depth and at considerable and interesting detail and the kilt of the Irish variety, which we are all here interested in, to a greater or lesser extent. For this particular thread anything else not connected to those points are a mere, but possibly interesting, detail.

[MacSpadger]

............. it is some of the reasoning by many here for justifying wearing the kilt that seems rather tenuous to some of us. I for one do not understand it.

....and to bring the thread back to it's origins, evidence from 1900 to 1903 suggest that the native Irish found the justifications tenuous too.

As has been said, it is a matter of puzzlement as to why the kilt has been taken up as a widespread symbol of American-Irishness in very modern times, when it was rejected as being entirely non-Irish in Ireland itself. To be concise, the kilt is definitely not a symbol of nationalism in Ireland at all, but has recently become so in many parts of the USA. That's the quandary.

To paraphrase Jock Scot, a tricky subject indeed. Having read all the replies carefully, I still don't have a definitive answer. It would appear, however, like the St Patrick's Day Parade, the wearing of the kilt as a symbol of Irish identity, (for those born outside of Ireland), has become an American tradition with it's deeper roots in the USA, not Ireland.

These things do reflect back over the water, of course. I remember absolute loathing and contempt being abroad in Scotland when the first Tartan Day was announced in New York. Phrases like "You'd be laughed off the planet if you tried that over here", abounded, and that's one of the more polite ones. As other Tartan Day events started springing up in Canada, USA, Australia, New Zealand, etc, the potential for generating income was finally acknowledged by the powers that be and lo and behold Scotland, tearfully swallowing the lumps, had it's first Tartan Day in 2006.

A similar thing to St Patrick's day in Ireland going from a day of religious observation and abstinence to an American style street party, including the consumption of alcohol, over a few short years.

There are an estimated 312,780,968 people living in the USA.
There are around 5.2 million in Scotland and around 4.5 million living in the Republic of Ireland. The plain fact is that whatever cultural aspects take part on your side of the globe, it's bound to have a tidal effect on our side of the world by sheer weight of numbers. St Patrick's Day "celebrations" and Tartan Day are prime examples of this. Maybe someday the kilt will eventually be accepted as a symbol of "Irishness" or "Celticness" outside of the USA, but I can't quite see it myself. The ordinary Irish people had the common sense to reject the kilt as a symbol of nationality in 1900, and common sense still abides in Ireland today. By the time this bland "Celticness" may come about, my auld heid will no doubt be lying in the cauld clay, so by that time I will no longer be baffled by what goes on among my kilt wearing cousins over the Atlantic. Cheerio.

[CMcG]

Wow!, I just spent three hours reading this thread...

Yeah, eh? Blackrose87 (the OP) got quite a hearty response to his original question, some of which was even on topic Irish people, at home and abroad, have been wearing kilts, no matter how small the numbers or how tenuous their connections to the Highland traditions, for over a century.

What stands out to me out of all of this, is that the idea behind Patrick Pearse's famous (infamous?) words still resonates with some Irish people: "Frankly, I should much prefer to see you arrayed in a kilt, although it may be less authentic..." Romantically pointing to an ancient fraternity between Gaelic peoples as justification for kilt wearing may be tenuous, but remains more than sufficient for most Irish kilt wearers.

But let's not exaggerate this. In Pearse's time, there were only a small number of civilian kilt wearers in Ireland and eventually there were also kilted pipers or dancers. On another recent thread, it was revealed that there has been a recent trend towards kilted weddings in Ireland and that there are a few parades in the North that feature both kilted paraders and bystanders. There are even a few Xmarkers in Ireland who might wear the kilt at other times, but basically the number of kilties in Ireland is still very, very small.

I think the situation in the diaspora is similar and that this website maybe makes it seem like there are more Irish kilt wearers than there actually are. There are Irish pipe bands, to be sure, and some folks will kilt up for St. Pat's or weddings, etc. There are, of course, some Xmarkers who wear an Irish kilt more often. But I honestly think the total number is still quite small relative to the massive amount of folks who claim diasporic Irish heritage. Sure the amount of people might be greater than in Ireland, but it is really only a small percentage.

The fact is that some Irish people like to wear kilts and have constructed part of their identity to include this. Like it or hate it, that is the situation. Now on to the impact of this. The danger of diluting Gaelic Scottish identity with Irish kilts, or even Celtic kilts more generally, is potentially mitigated by the benefit it brings.

Allow me to make an extreme example: if only Highlanders wore the kilt in the Highlands, this wonderful style of dress could be in danger of extinction. In a capitalist society, there needs to be a market for a product and people who buy one kilt in their life (or inherit one) don't quite justify production costs.

The demand of Irish consumers (again, at home and abroad) does a small bit to ensure that there are kilts and accessories to buy. In these terms, the Irish have been doing their part for longer than Lowland Scots! Let us not forget the Scottish diaspora or the other "Celtic" peoples either...

To sum this up, I beg anyone who is still reading this to forgive me for making a Sancho Panza-esque conclusion. The cat is already well out of the bag and can't be put back in. This is truly a catch 22 because restricting the kilt to Highlanders in the Highlands would be cutting off one's nose to spite one's face. It is a slippery slope once the flood gates are opened and many peoples have now found their own little link to the kilt. It would be best not to throw the baby out with the bath water, but rather to let bygones be bygones, bury the hatchet, and look on the bright side.

[denmcdough]

Well put, Colin!!!!

[Blackrose87]

To sum this up, I beg anyone who is still reading this to forgive me for making a Sancho Panza-esque conclusion. The cat is already well out of the bag and can't be put back in. This is truly a catch 22 because restricting the kilt to Highlanders in the Highlands would be cutting off one's nose to spite one's face. It is a slippery slope once the flood gates are opened and many peoples have now found their own little link to the kilt. It would be best not to throw the baby out with the bath water, but rather to let bygones be bygones, bury the hatchet, and look on the bright side.

A great summary of the issue, to conclude a brilliant post.

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

Allow me to make an extreme example: if only Highlanders wore the kilt in the Highlands, this wonderful style of dress could be in danger of extinction. In a capitalist society, there needs to be a market for a product and people who buy one kilt in their life (or inherit one) don't quite justify production costs.

One hears this argument on a frequent basis, but I for one don't think it holds water. If the wearing of kilts were limited only to Highlanders, the art of weaving tartan and the art of kilt making simply would not die out. The cost of having tartan woven by hand would, possibly, increase; the wait for a new kilt might also increase, assuming that there were fewer kilt makers plying their craft. But the availability of kilts (which are a hand made product to begin with) in clan tartans (many of which have to specially woven anyhow) simply would not wither away. It would just become a cottage industry, much as it was in, say, the 1880s.

[macwilkin]

To sum this up, I beg anyone who is still reading this to forgive me for making a Sancho Panza-esque conclusion. The cat is already well out of the bag and can't be put back in. This is truly a catch 22 because restricting the kilt to Highlanders in the Highlands would be cutting off one's nose to spite one's face. It is a slippery slope once the flood gates are opened and many peoples have now found their own little link to the kilt. It would be best not to throw the baby out with the bath water, but rather to let bygones be bygones, bury the hatchet, and look on the bright side.

You know, I agree with this viewpoint. Personally, I have no issue with the Irish diaspora adopting Highland rig. The issue I have is when an incorrect mythology is taken as gospel to justify the action, and that those with a genuine interest in telling the history based on legitimate sources are shouted down by those who do not wish to hear what they're saying.

Personally, I think it's a good thing that diaspora communities are creating their own traditions, like the Kirkin' of the Tartans. I wish folks would just take pride in that it is a new tradition, and not create an ancient pedigree for justification. Given that the first St. Patrick's Day parades were in the North American colonies, and that Irish pipe bands have adopted much from the Scottish Regiments of the British Army, an Army that many Irish have served in, including a fairly large number of Irish, both from Erie and diaspora communities in Scotland, in the Scottish Regiments, then such a tribute is the sincerest form of respect.

Some of the "opposition" in this thread have the experience of actually living in the ROI, and others have made some sound arguments based on historical research. It's a shame to see them shouted down simply because they do not support the myth. But, as John Ford told us in The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance...

T.

[kilted scholar]

I have no personal stake in this debate, not being Irish or having any connection with Ireland, but I thought this link might be of interest. I came across it in looking at the news on the BBC website today. It's about a St Patrick's Day parade in Birmingham today that attracted 85,000 people and contains a picture of a kilted pipe band. I have no point to prove on this - I see no reason to depart from the clear historical position that the kilt has no established links to Ireland.
See http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england...ngham-12727171

[Jock Scot]

One hears this argument on a frequent basis, but I for one don't think it holds water. If the wearing of kilts were limited only to Highlanders, the art of weaving tartan and the art of kilt making simply would not die out. The cost of having tartan woven by hand would, possibly, increase; the wait for a new kilt might also increase, assuming that there were fewer kilt makers plying their craft. But the availability of kilts (which are a hand made product to begin with) in clan tartans (many of which have to specially woven anyhow) simply would not wither away. It would just become a cottage industry, much as it was in, say, the 1880s.

Absolutely! I could not agree more. The kilt wearing traditions in Scotland's Highlands run far deeper than most can imagine, although they are vulnerable to outside pressures eroding them and I have no doubt that if the scenario that MoR paints did ever happen, the kilt would prevail. The times for all concerned, should it happen, could be pretty grim for all concerned, I should imagine.