Jacobite sanctions to be lifted?

[English Bloke]

Apologies...

Should know better!

[creagdhubh]

Please keep in mind that Rule 5 which may soon come to play in this thread. The OP was simply providing a link to information he thought would be of general interest. Asking questions that further his intent to provide education is acceptable; to make unfounded statements leading to confrontation or political discussion is not.

This is just a shot across the bow.

***

[MacSpadger]

Hi Tobus, I thought the word "Tainted", as used by Hugh Peskett in the clip, was a bit melodramatic for this day and age, and that's my own personal take on it. Sometimes posting online does not come across as intended. Mr Peskett is taking it from the old phrase attainder, which is contained in the original legal phrasing, and does indeed allude to tainted blood. He is using it correctly.

Father Bill has it correct that the lifting of sanctions is largely a symbolic gesture. As you may tell from the accents of those interviewed and the kinds of homes they live in, the "blacklist" may exist but does not seem to have excluded those on it from holding office in high paid positions, nor benefiting from inherited wealth, far from it. The blacklist did not include "commoners".

The plea for the lifting of the sanctions is timed to co-incide with the Queen's diamond jubilee, to garner attention to it, as is linking it with Culloden, IMHO. These sanctions were not limited to the '45 and were in very common use before and after the '15 rebellion. "Bobbing John" the 11th Earl of Mar had a Writ of Attainder passed against him in 1716 which was not lifted until 1824. If it were not for the fact that he died in 1732, I'm sure he would have been much relieved. Lord Nairne was Attained for his actions in the '15, had the attainder partially reversed, then was Attained again for his actions in the '45 before having the Writ of Attainder lifted in 1824.
1824 seems to have been a year where there was a surge in reversing attainders. Public records are online these days and you can see the 1824 applications from the then Earl of Mar, Viscounts Kenmure and Strathallan, and Baron Nairn here.

I did not mean to cause any stir, the events of Culloden are behind us and have no bearing on modern politics. Jacobitism has a fascination for some members here, so I though it would be of interest. I posted this in the History section because that's what it is, history. Thanks.

[McClef]

The picture implies that he eats his Scott's Porage Pats every day!

[creagdhubh]

Hi Tobus, I thought the word "Tainted", as used by Hugh Peskett in the clip, was a bit melodramatic for this day and age, and that's my own personal take on it. Sometimes posting online does not come across as intended. Mr Peskett is taking it from the old phrase attainder, which is contained in the original legal phrasing, and does indeed allude to tainted blood. He is using it correctly.

Father Bill has it correct that the lifting of sanctions is largely a symbolic gesture. As you may tell from the accents of those interviewed and the kinds of homes they live in, the "blacklist" may exist but does not seem to have excluded those on it from holding office in high paid positions, nor benefiting from inherited wealth, far from it. The blacklist did not include "commoners".

The plea for the lifting of the sanctions is timed to co-incide with the Queen's diamond jubilee, to garner attention to it, as is linking it with Culloden, IMHO. These sanctions were not limited to the '45 and were in very common use before and after the '15 rebellion. "Bobbing John" the 11th Earl of Mar had a Writ of Attainder passed against him in 1716 which was not lifted until 1824. If it were not for the fact that he died in 1732, I'm sure he would have been much relieved. Lord Nairne was Attained for his actions in the '15, had the attainder partially reversed, then was Attained again for his actions in the '45 before having the Writ of Attainder lifted in 1824.
1824 seems to have been a year where there was a surge in reversing attainders. Public records are online these days and you can see the 1824 applications from the then Earl of Mar, Viscounts Kenmure and Strathallan, and Baron Nairn here.

I did not mean to cause any stir, the events of Culloden are behind us and have no bearing on modern politics. Jacobitism has a fascination for some members here, so I though it would be of interest. I posted this in the History section because that's what it is, history. Thanks.

Well said!

[Tuirc]

I think MacSpadger brings out a number of good points in his last. First, commoners didn't have attainders passed against them. A good point, as I think believe there is a good reason many people, of Scots ancestry living in the US, Canada, Aus. etc, have interest in things Jacobite for many this era was the last their family had to do with Scotland. It doesn't sound like this action would have much effect on my clan members despite the fact they were out in the 15 and the 45. The MacLarens had uniformly refused to submit to the crown for nearly 200 years before 1957, to provide "appropriate proofs" (sorry I don't have the detail here) and were thought landless and chiefless until the present chief's father cured this in 1957. So, we suffered, probably through our own bloody-mindedness, typical for our clan, but while some MacLarens were certainly outlawed, I don't think attainder was passed on any of them. We, traditionally, since 1450 or so, are joined at the hip with clan Stewart of Appin, so our fates are intertwined.

I guess my larger point is that nearly 300 years after the event, with no chance of renewed stife on that account, why wouldn't sanctions be lifted? MacSpadger is right again when he says this is history. Romantic history, yes. But, history nonetheless. I thought the reference to the American War Between the States was apt. I've often thought that the two conflicts had many similarities. Faulkner's quote that for every southern boy, it will always be the morning of July 4, 1863, before Pickett's charge, where promise and lay ahead, or words to that effect, doing this from memory. For Scots or those that think of the Jacobite cause romantically, it is similar. They are always on the road to Derby. No decision has been made to turn back, Johnny Cope has been soundly thrashed and nothing stands between here and London. Both of those sentiments are romantic views of history though. For practicalities like removing attainder, there should be no question, remove it now. Of course, all Americans should hold this view, that's why Bills of Attainder were specifically prohibited by the US Constitution.