Cardinal Sin???

[BCAC]

I many ways yes, it's a personal choice. I've certainly seen many people wearing a belt under a waistcoat. But the traditional view is that one either wears one or the other. If your kilt fits you properly, you shouldn't need to wear a belt with a waistcoat, and it would be hidden by the waistcoat anyway. So it would be superfluous. In fact, it would create an unsightly bulge under your waistcoat. So the question which leaps to mind is "why would one want to wear a belt with a waistcoat?"

Now the wearing of a belt over the waistcoat is another matter entirely. It, too, is occasionally done. But those more knowledgeable than I would need to explain the hows or whys of doing that.

Tobus is right, of couse (as usual!). The thing is, now you know WHY you're not supposed to wear your belt with a waistcoat (because of the "supposed" unsightly bulge that it makes), YOU can decide whether you will wear it or not. If you put them both on, it feels comfortable, and there is no "unsightly bulge", then why not wear both? If the belt fits OK and is worn in the right place (at the top of the kilt) then no one will see it anyway. It's not really the right moment to show off that superb buckle, though!

In theory, you're not supposed to need to wear a belt with your kilt if your kilt was made for you. If I'm not wearing a waistcoat, I will always wear a belt because it looks (to me) as if something is missing if there is no belt. With a waistcoat it will depend on the kilt I am wearing. I have one kilt which is now slightly large on my waist (I've lost weight since I ordered it) so if I'm wearing that one, even with a waistcoat, then I'll wear my belt as well. Then there's always the case of the "off the rack" standard sized kilts that some people buy. Because not many people are standard sized, then a belt is often called for (even with a waistcoat).

So all in all, you shouldn't need to wear a belt with a waistcoat but, if you feel the need, or if you want to, then go ahead.

Edited to add: The wearing of a belt over the waistcoat is usually done when (normally in evening dress) one is wearing a dirk, to support the dirk, and then it is called a "dirk belt".

[Bobby Gordon]

Excellent, thanks for your input guys
Well the kilt's were home made by me, so they fit perfectly. So whatever the case the belts are purely for show. Just because the belts and buckles are awesome!
So when I got married we wore them under our waistcoats, but mine was barely visable because I've got a short torso. But I knew when I got to the reception I'd be taking off my jacket a waistcoat so hey presto, it would be there for all the see. I thought it would be better to wear it all day rather than carrying it around with me and putting it on in the evening. But you can see in the photo's (once I'm able to post them) that my brothers belts are clearly visible below their waistcoats, they must have longer torso's than me!

[Bobby Gordon]

J & B-123.jpg154.JPG

[Tobus]

I can certainly understand the practicality of wearing a belt under a waistcoat if you're going to take off the waistcoat/jacket later on in the day and want to show the belt. There's absolutely nothing "wrong" with that, and it just makes good sense. That's thinking ahead!

From the photos I'm seeing, this probably could have been executed more seamlessly (i.e. with the belts being fully hidden under the waistcoats) if the kilts were worn a little higher up, so that the bottom selvedge is at the top of the knee. I'm assuming you are the one in the center of the photo, wearing the dress sporran and fly plaid? Yours is closest to being at the 'proper' height, and it does seem that the waistplate would have been entirely hidden if you had hiked up your kilt just a smidge to show your knees. The others flanking you would likely have benefited from the same raising of their kilts so that their knees were exposed and the belts hidden under the waistcoats.

Based on the second photo, it seems like the tops of the kilts are being worn at the natural waist, which is good. But it is possible to wear them higher, especially when hidden by a waistcoat, to get the bottom edge at the top of the knees, with the double benefit of hiding the belt under the waistcoat. Then, when the waistcoat comes off, lower the kilt to the natural waist if that's where you want it.

It's water under the bridge now, of course, so don't fret it. I'm sure a good time was had by all. Minor details notwithstanding, you chaps look pretty well turned out. I love those reproduction/weathered colours!

[Bobby Gordon]

Thanks again Tobus
yeah I know what you mean, your probably right. I'm sure you know what weddings are like, just a mad rush in the morning!
Now, I'm a bit confused about the correct length: what height someone wears it is a bit out of my hands, but what you say about it coming to the top of the knee is what I've always thought, and it what is recommended in 'The Art of Kiltmaking'. But when I was making my kilt and showing it to my then fiancé and a friends mother and grandmother (so three generations of Scottish women in one room) they all said that was too much knee. When i've been into kilt-makers in Edinburgh they say to get the accurate length the client kneels on the ground and they measure from naval down to hovering just above the ground.

[BCAC]

Thanks again Tobus
yeah I know what you mean, your probably right. My brothers live in England and Spain, and the first time they'd come to see me in Scotland, so that day was the first day they'd even tried on a kilt! I'm sure you know what weddings are like, just a mad rush in the morning!
Now, I'm a bit confused about the correct length: what height someone wears it is a bit out of my hands, but what you say about it coming to the top of the knee is what I've always thought, and it what is recommended in 'The Art of Kiltmaking'. But when I was making my kilt and showing it to my then fiancé and a friends mother and grandmother (so three generations of Scottish women in one room) they all said that was too much knee. When i've been into kilt-makers in Edinburgh they say to get the accurate length the client kneels on the ground and they measure from naval down to hovering just above the ground.

I think, once again, the length of the kilt is personal preference. Where you feel good with it. Not higher than an inch above the kneecap and not lower than the bottom of the kneecap (simply because that looks funny, not right, bad or as was quoted in one well known book trollopy!).

[Tobus]

Yeah, we've had many discussions here on the "proper" height of the kilt in relation to the knee. Opinions vary greatly. But in general, here is what I have observed:

1. Our native Highlanders generally recommend wearing it with the kilt somewhere between the middle of the kneecap and the top of the knee (with their preferences trending more towards the top of the knee).

2. Military kilt-wearing standards dictate that the top of the knee is the correct height.

3. Historic paintings/portraits/photographs from the 1700s through at least the mid-1900s (and many later ones showing native Highlanders) tend to uniformly depict kilts towards the top of the knee. Sometimes even higher than that.

4. Wearing the kilt at the middle of the knee or lower seems to be mostly an American trend, especially with the more modern/contemporary (i.e. non-Scottish) style kilts, and seems to echo the current fashion trends of wearing shorts below the knee. I may be incorrect here, but it seems that there is a new crop of kilt-wearers in Scotland who are following this trend, such as the "Tartan Army" and lots of Lowlanders who, like Americans, may not have grown up with a strong kilt-wearing tradition. This may be leading to new traditions evolving with a new kilt-wearing culture which do not mesh with older Highland traditions.

Personally, I have observed that kilt-hire shops do not tend to give advice that gels with more established kilt-wearing traditions. That, too, has been the subject of many discussions on this forum. I think kilt-hire shops are kind of "out there on their own", attempting to reinvent tradition. But at the end of the day, it's up to you to make the decision on what you think looks best. My only advice would be to take a look at older, more traditional examples of kilt-wearing and compare it to the newer fashion trends. Experiment with your own look, and let it evolve over time.