Weathered Clan Chattan Tartan?

**Tobus** · 21st November 12, 08:00 AM

Phonetically it is pronounced 'Cray-GOO Clan HAT-un.'

Gaelic pronunciation continues to elude me. Is the "dhubh", meaning "black", the same as used in "sgian dubh"? And if so, why is it pronounced "Goo", where sgian dubh is pronounced "Doo"? Is the addition of the first "h" in "dhubh" relevant to the difference in pronunciation and/or usage from "dubh"?

**creagdhubh** · 21st November 12, 08:32 AM

Originally Posted by Tobus

Gaelic pronunciation continues to elude me. Is the "dhubh", meaning "black", the same as used in "sgian dubh"? And if so, why is it pronounced "Goo", where sgian dubh is pronounced "Doo"? Is the addition of the first "h" in "dhubh" relevant to the difference in pronunciation and/or usage from "dubh"?
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Yes, "dhubh," or "dubh," in Scottish Gaelic means "black." It is the same word in regards to the "dubh" in "sgian dubh," which translates to "black knife," due to the handle of the sgian dubh being traditionally made of bog oak (bog wood), which is very dark brown to black in colour. 'Cray-GOO' is how most Macphersons pronounce the first part of our slogan/war cry. Though, when it is said very fast, it sounds like 'Craig-DOO,' so it can also be a matter of perception. Just as is the case with most forms of dialect, some of the same words may be written or vocalised slightly different, with much of this dependent upon the region.

For example, the Macphersons in Badenoch may pronounce 'Creag Dhubh' as 'Cray-GOO,' and the Camerons in Lochaber may pronounce the same two words as 'Craig-DOO.' Both pronunciations are slightly different when heard, if the listener could even tell the difference, but the meaning is essentially the same. In this particular case, whether or not the 'h' is present at the beginning of the word 'dhubh,' really doesn't matter and certainly does not affect the pronunciation in any way. Like clan and family surnames, the slightly differenced spelling could certainly be up to the individual and/or family's discretion (as well as educational/literacy issues, which was rampant throughout much of the UK in centuries past), but it would never be altered to the extent where the original word is completely transformed, which would obviously change its meaning entirely.

**TheOfficialBren** · 21st November 12, 10:41 PM

Wow! The amount of knowledge from the rabble never ceases to amaze me!

Thank you, Kyle, Matt, Downunderkilter, and OC Richard for sharing. I always wondered why a Google search for a weathered version never yielded anything. Now I know. Good stuff.

Tobus, Gaelic is a great language but it's a mystery to me, too. I would like to learn, though.

Matt, I would be interested in the future. Funds are a little short at the moment but a box-pleat might look good down the road. It could be nice.

**neloon** · 22nd November 12, 03:48 AM

Just to add some detail on Gaelic pronunciation etc. "creag" is a feminine noun so the associated adjective has to reflect this i.e. "dubh" becomes "dhubh" in the same way as Iain Ban (fair John) would become Mairi Bhan (fair Mary - the "bh" being pronounced "v"). The use of "h" in Gaelic typography (called "leniition") corresponds, in Irish, to putting a dot over the lenited consonant; in Welsh, the letter is simply changed so that "Mair" would become"Fair". By the way, the Gaelic "gh" sound is not "g" but a gutteral that is hard to exemplify an any other language or it can be silent so that, in some dialects, "Creag Dhubh" would sould like "craychgoo" the middle "ch" representing modest pre-lenition of the "g"

**Padraicog** · 22nd November 12, 05:02 AM

Originally Posted by creagdhubh

For example, the Macphersons in Badenoch may pronounce 'Creag Dhubh' as 'Cray-GOO,' and the Camerons in Lochaber may pronounce the same two words as 'Craig-DOO.' Both pronunciations are slightly different when heard, if the listener could even tell the difference, but the meaning is essentially the same. In this particular case, whether or not the 'h' is present at the beginning of the word 'dhubh,' really doesn't matter and certainly does not affect the pronunciation in any way. Like clan and family surnames, the slightly differenced spelling could certainly be up to the individual and/or family's discretion (as well as educational/literacy issues, which was rampant throughout much of the UK in centuries past), but it would never be altered to the extent where the original word is completely transformed, which would obviously change its meaning entirely.

Neloon's post explained the essence of lenition in Gaelic, but let me make a couple of further points. What is written on paper is a system of representing the sounds of a language not the the other way round; spoken language came first.

Secondly when one sees an "h" in written Gaelic it is generally indicating that there is a change from the normal way of pronouncing the word. Neloon gave a couple of examples where an adjective is used to describe a feminine noun - the pronunciation differs from its use with a masculine noun. Similarly when using the Vocative case (essentially speaking) to someone the pronunciation of the name changes compared with the Genitive (essentially but not entirely true speaking about someone) case. For example Mairi or Mary in English (genitive) becomes Mhairi (approximately pronounced Vaaree) in the Vocative case.

In short then far from the "h" indicating little of significance it is the complete opposite showing as it does quite important differences in pronunciation

Oh and one other thing - written Gaelic compared to written English is so much easier to follow because the rules are fairly clear and have few exceptions.

**neloon** · 22nd November 12, 08:28 AM

"the rules are fairly clear and have few exceptions."
Many would dispute that!
A further complication in spoken Gaelic is the dialectal variation in pronunciation. For example, (maybe we're getting a bit off topic here), the verb "understand" is "duig" pronounced "tooeek" except on Lewis where it's pronounced "dig"; this has given rise in (American) English to expressions such as "I twig that" or "I dig that".