What would you do?

[artificer]

Bravo, Steve!

While it's always hard to turn away money, I think this greatly reflects the very best values of XMarks.

ith:

[Grizzly]

To all the members of X Marks.

When I first posted my questions I'm sure a few of you could guess that there was a specific reason why I did so. Well, yes, while I could not say so at the time, there was a valid reason I asked the questions I did and used the words that I did.

You answered my questions and the response was overwhelming that you feel that those who violate or infringe on copyrights and patents should not be advertisers on X Marks.


Starting early in January I received multiple accusations of copyright infringement against one of our advertisers. These we accusations only. There was no proof or documentation to back up the accusations so I could not act or do anything.

I have been in contact with the owners of the companies that were supposed to hold the copyrights. After a rather long delay I received copies of the copyrights in question via email today.

I then contacted the owner of the company in question.




Let me state for everyone so there is no mistake. I believe that the membership of this forum wish me to hold those who advertise here to a high ethical standard.
As this is a privately owned forum, the decision who will, and who will not, be an advertiser here is mine and mine alone.
I strongly believe that I owe the members of this forum the right and expectation that those who advertise here are companies that share the ethical standard you have expressed in this thread.


No company that is infringing the copyright or patent of another will remain an advertiser on X Marks if proof of the copyright or patent is provided.
If proof of copyright or patent infringement is provided and the offender refuses to remove the items I will cancel their advertising here immediately.

bravo Steve.

[Steve Ashton]

Believe me money is not the issue. I'm not in this to make money. I charge for advertising only enough to cover the expenses of the forum and to purchase a few X Marks exclusive items for our members.

[okiwen]

I am sure he/they are nice people, but the greater good is doing just what you have done. Perhaps he'll make changes and be right back. I hope so. It would make me feel better about people.

[Steve Ashton]

This particular case does bring up another issue.

We, the buying public, be-moan and say how sad it is that cheaper goods are coming in from overseas and undercutting the old, respected Scottish firms.

We ask "Why are the old firms dying out?"

Well, the truth is - We are the ones killing them. If we don't buy from them they cannot stay in business.

How many websites can you find selling the exact same design belt buckle? The same design sporran cantle? The same design utility style kilt?

Some of these designs have been around since the first days of Highland wear on the web. They have been around so long that they have become almost iconic.
Even as long as 2001 in some cases. Wow, a whole 13 years!

Because they are some of the first, they were also some of the first to be copied.

And yet when we see those designs and like it, and we decide we would like to buy one, what do we do? We surf the web till we find the lowest price. And that is where our money goes.

If it is sold in so many places it must be a well liked and popular design. Does it ever occur to us to ask ourselves who the artist was that came up with the design in the first place?

I can just about guarantee that those copying these designs are not the ones who came up with the design in the first place. They are copying them because they know that someone will buy them because they are proven successful and well liked designs.

If we, the buying public, continue to see the same designs over and over yet never bother to ask if those designs are stolen we are directly responsible for the original firm dying.

Yep, I'm putting this right back on us. It is not the overseas companies doing this to the Scottish firms, it is us spending our money on the copies that are killing them.
And believe it or not it is X Marks that is doing some of this.



Let me give you an example. The Isle of Skye Tartan. In early 2005 an X Marks member posted about his new kilt in the IOS Tartan. Everyone here loved it. A poll was put up and we voted it the most beautiful Tartan in the world. We even started calling it the X Marks Hunting Tartan.

We started buying IOS Tartan kilts.

Within six months there appeared three companies selling "Isle of Skye Tartan Kilts" at a fraction of the price we were used to seeing. And our members began to buy them. A lot of them.

Luckily one of our members knew that this Tartan is under copyright to a lady in Australia. That was posted about here. Did it stop the sales? No, we were still spending our money of the cheaper ones even though we now knew it was ripped off.

Some more luck. A large shipping container arrived in a port in Scotland filled to the brim with knock-off Isle of Skye Tartan kilts. An import agent who happen to be a member of X Marks, and had read here that the IOS was under copyright, stopped the container and sent it back to Pakistan.
Oh, it came back soon after. The kilts were now called "Bright Skye Tartan Kilts". And believe it or not, they were sold.


Some of our members do not realize the power this small internet forum has in the kilt world. We can literally make or break a product. We can literally make or break a company.

Is the kilt making world watching us? Well I can assure you that the Pakistani and Indian, and Chinese manufacturers are watching X Marks. Why bother to register when they can simply log on as guests? And I can assure you that they are logged on every day. They are watching what X Marks members are buying.
And that is exactly what they are going to make next. All because they know from history that we will buy it if they can offer it at a cheaper price. We proved it to them.

Some of our members are searching the internet daily, looking for those bargains. They post here about them all the time.
I would suggest to our members that they open their eyes to the power that this little internet forum has become.
Do you want the Scottish based highland wear industry to succeed? Then watch where you are spending your money.
If you see the same product offered by two, three or more sites, ask yourself if you are seeing a case of theft.
Post a question about that if you see it.

And if you see a case of what you believe is copyright or patent infringement and still spend your money to support it ---

[Farmer Jones]

I was brought up on a very strict diet of Duty, Honour, Truth and Justice. Along with this I was taught that there are some principles that are worth more than money. That you can know the character of a man who holds coin in higher esteem than his honour. When I came to this forum I had an expectation that to some extent the people I would find here are like minded. As a consequence I turned off my ad blockers and regularly visit the sites of the advertisers to familiarize myself with places to purchase those things I need, when I am able to get them. In fact it has transpired that I have a personal friendly dialogue going with one of the advertisers here. If I see them advertising in here, I want to be able to believe that these are worthy individuals and companies. It was my mother who taught me that if I buy cheap, I will get what I pay for, and that it is better to do without than to support the unscrupulous. This does not hold for everyone, and I am glad they have the choice to go buy something made by virtual slave labour in countries like Pakistan. I just will not do it myself. Steve, above all else I want to thank you, because your asking these questions has restored a little faith to me.

[cookingkilted]

Personally when it come to buying anything I always go for quality and then price. All the kilts and items for those kilts besides the first one was of the recommendations of the people from this site. I would love to thank everyone for their hones opinion, especially when I'm told something is a bit on the pricey side but well worth it. I have the same mind set when it come to eating and cooking, I will gladly pay that little bit extra if it means a better quality of product and that means a happy customer/mouth.

[Tobus]

How many websites can you find selling the exact same design belt buckle? The same design sporran cantle? The same design utility style kilt?

Some of these designs have been around since the first days of Highland wear on the web. They have been around so long that they have become almost iconic.
Even as long as 2001 in some cases. Wow, a whole 13 years!

Because they are some of the first, they were also some of the first to be copied.

And yet when we see those designs and like it, and we decide we would like to buy one, what do we do? We surf the web till we find the lowest price. And that is where our money goes.

If it is sold in so many places it must be a well liked and popular design. Does it ever occur to us to ask ourselves who the artist was that came up with the design in the first place?

I can just about guarantee that those copying these designs are not the ones who came up with the design in the first place. They are copying them because they know that someone will buy them because they are proven successful and well liked designs.

If we, the buying public, continue to see the same designs over and over yet never bother to ask if those designs are stolen we are directly responsible for the original firm dying.

Yep, I'm putting this right back on us. It is not the overseas companies doing this to the Scottish firms, it is us spending our money on the copies that are killing them.
And believe it or not it is X Marks that is doing some of this.

That's a good point, Steve, but let me ask you a question. If I see a belt buckle design that I like, how am I (the consumer) supposed to know whether it's an original or a copy? Who would I even ask? Is it even possible to find out the origin of these designs?

We consumers may be to blame for buying the knock-offs, but if we don't know they're knock-offs, and have no means of finding out, what are we supposed to do?

[Steve Ashton]

Actually Tobus it's sort of common sense. And it's not really a question about copyrights. Some things are copyrighted but most are not. And a copyright is only as good as the will of the copyright holder it to enforce it. The onus does fall on the copyright holder.

I was speaking in a broader sense. We all like a bargain. And it is a fact of life that the less expensive products will always sell. Some of the offshore items are pretty good.
Who I was speaking to were we, who take the kilt seriously, not to the uninformed tourist.

So, to answer your question the best I can -

In general, if the company you are looking at has the same item as another, for a significantly lower price, it is usually a knock off. How many times have you seen someone post here, "That price is just too good to be true.".

And in general - the overseas companies very seldom do their own design work. Many do not know what this stuff they make is supposed to look like or what it is for. They simply do not have the background to know. Evidence is found in the youtube videos of the Pakistani pipe bands. These guys have no idea how to wear a kilt. You will see them with the pleats in the front or with a kilt hem down at mid calf.
You will also see them mixing items from many different cultures or uses. I have seen academic mortar board hats with dingle-balls all around the brim worn with kilts.
So they must get their ideas from existing products. In many cases they are simply making copies of things they know are selling well. And often they themselves do not know if the thing they are copying is under a copyright in another country.

Another generality is if you see the same item but one or two of them are slightly different. A different metal or stamped instead of cast.

Or, better yet, look at the items carried by our advertisers. Yes, one of our advertisers does carry a very similar item as the company that I just had to remove. The difference is that the items sold by one company are purchased from the copyright holder and the other was buying a Pakistani knock-off.
How do I know, Well simply I asked them. The two items were pointed out to me, and one was far less in cost than the other.

So I called both.

One company replied to my inquiry with "Yes, we purchase our products from XXX and they are the originator of it."
The other company replied with "I don't have to tell you my sources and it doesn't matter anyway because a UK copyright is not valid in the US."

In the end communication is the key. Talk to who you are thinking of buying from. Develop a rapport. Get to know them. The kilt world is truly a small place. Most of us in the business know each other. I speak to most of the people in this business, as one kiltmaker to another, on a regular basis.

If all you are going to do is surf the web for the best deal and type in your credit card number, you are doing yourself and the kilt world a disservice. You really should know these people. Some of then are incredibly talented.

[Calgacus]

Well said Steve.

When buying items of Highland dress, my ethos is first of all to attempt to buy a Scottish made item from a Scottish supplier. If this is not possible, then a western made item from a western supplier. If this is not possible, then an eastern made item from a western supplier. Price to me is secondary to quality and place of origin. If there are two Scottish items from two Scottish suppliers I will decide what level of quality I am prepared to pay for, and it will generally be the highest. If the two items are identical I will obviously choose the lowest priced, unless the cheaper one is a rip-off.

When I buy my next kilt (and any/all future kilts) it will be a heavyweight wool kilt hand-stitched in Scotland and made from Scottish cloth. The cloth will probably come from D.C. Dalgleish because they are the last artisan weaver.

If I need to buy a new tweed jacket it will be made in Scotland from Scottish tweed, preferably Harris tweed. Accessories will be western, if at all possible, which in practice means Scottish, British or North American.

Will these decisions cost me money? Yes, at least at the outset. I am having to save and justify the expenditure to myself for a new kilt when there are other pressures on my finances, but I will do that to support local companies making quality products. In the longer term I believe that I am actually saving money. A kilt is not a fashion item that will need thrown away in a year or so. I still have the first kilt and tweed jacket that I ever bought, and that was over twenty years ago. They are timeless and have stayed in fashion, and are in as good condition today as they were then. Do you think you could say the same of a cheap knock-off?

I would urge all X-Markers to think about their purchasing choices and the consequences these choices have.

Thank you, Steve, for doing as you have done.