Irish versus Gaelic

[TheOfficialBren]

Plus one to Nathan's post. In my area if you want anything Celtic it is overwhelmingly Irish.

For example, our local Scottish Society usually meets in a modest clubhouse for meeti gs and a restaurant for more festive events, unless it's one of several Games or Ceilidhs throughout the year.

In contrast, our Irish Club has a bar in their clubhouse.

They self-perpetuate the stereotype and I suspect more than a couple of plastic Paddys but most folks there are genuinely interested in preserving the culture.

They usually combine respurces for the Celtic Music Festival (a semi-annual event) held at one of several large outdoor venues. Sometimes they do it more than twice in a year but usually twice. I wish they'd do it quarterly.

My area is overwhelmingly Irish in comparrison to Scottish but our Irish wear kilts, too. It's an identifier of the North American Gael in our region.

[Lodrorigdzin]

Irish stuff is enjoying a period of popularity. Bands like the Pogues made it cool to a wide range of people and inspired other bands to remake the music in a punk mould.

Scottish folk stayed more traditional and their crossover acts aimed more to the adult contemporary and country markets. The folk rock influenced groups like Runrig and Silly Wizard appealed to the rockers rather than the punks and so that's a separate strand. You'll find a lot of Scottish folk in soft-seat theatres and folk festivals than in Irish pubs.

I play both Irish and Scottish music in order to stay busy. In fact, I grew up with Scottish Gaelic and instrumental music along side Anglo-Irish ballads and pub songs.

Scottish music doesn't seem to be as comfortable promoting the drinking music stereotype. It is, generally speaking, slower and more plaintive. We like being sad. The Irish have this kind of music also, but they balance that with the rousing drinking songs. Scottish music has some of these but far fewer than say, the Irish or Newfoundland traditions.

One main difference between Irish and Scottish pubs here is that all of the Irish pubs have a sound system or stage for live music and the Scottish pubs don't.

They make their money selling single malt and don't want to give up the table space I suppose.

The best way to find Scottish folk music is to check out the tour schedules of artists you like to see when they'll be coming your way.

Some to check out:

Natalie MacMaster
Julie Fowlis
Mary Jane Lamond
Ashley MacIsaac
Barry Shears
The Barra MacNeils
Cathy Anne MacPhee
Beolach
Alasdair Fraser
The Rankins
Old Blind Dogs
Ecosse
Wolfstone
Battlefield Band
Capercaillie
Enter the Haggis
Hadrian's Wall

Heb Celt offers many kinds of Scottish music, and beyond, but you'll have to travel to Stornoway

http://www.hebceltfest.com/index.php

Terrific line up by the way

[StevieR]

. . . but our Irish wear kilts, too. It's an identifier of the North American Gael in our region.

I do find this interesting. I've visited Eire on many occasions and never once seen a local in a kilt (I know - you don't see an awful lot in Scotland either ) My best mate is a dyed in the wool Dubliner and his response when I asked him about wearing a kilt (about two minutes ago) "Why? Everyone would think I was Scots!"

[TheOfficialBren]

I do find this interesting. I've visited Eire on many occasions and never once seen a local in a kilt (I know - you don't see an awful lot in Scotland either ) My best mate is a dyed in the wool Dubliner and his response when I asked him about wearing a kilt (about two minutes ago) "Why? Everyone would think I was Scots!"

I completely agree and fully understand that they are two entirely different peoples with very different cultures.

Here're my thoughts on it:

It's an American thing, mostly.

I can understand precisely why it is baffling but most of the folk in my area blend the two because we usually have to in order to have a sizable amount of people for a decent gathering like Highland Games, ceilidhs, or Celtic music festivals because Gaelic peoples are largely in the minority here in Kern County. The demographic is largely Hispanic of various types, German (Oktoberfest is BIG around here), and English. Many people here call themselves "Scots-Irish" (actually, they typically use the misnomer "Scotch-Irish," out of a lack of understanding) incorrectly, too, not knowing that that is a specific group of people and mistaking it for shorthand for a person of both Scottish AND Irish descent.

Most people in my area won't (yes, won't) be bothered to do their research.

Kilts and tartanry are very, very romanticised around here, albeit in an unorthodox manner. Basically in the manner that inspired this forum's existence.
It would bring Jock Scot and our guys, like you, who are "in the know" to tears so I shan't post photos.

[O'Callaghan]

I'll try to keep this to the minimum.

1) Kilts were actually worn in Ireland as a symbol of being celtic prior to independence. They were single colour (green or saffron) to attempt to differentiate them from Scottish kilts. Saffron represents a common colour of the ancient Irish robe called the leine (which translates as shirt in modern Irish), whereas green was the colour used to rally the Irish rebels in the failed rising of 1798.

2) This partly was connected to the revival of the pipes in Ireland. Here we are talking about bands playing the great pipes, not Uilean pipers.

3) Irish kilt wearing seems not to have persisted much after WW2, except for the aforesaid pipers, but began sometime in the 19th century.

4) Saffron kilts are still worn by pipers in Irish regiments of the British Army, as well as by pipers in the Irish armed forces themselves.

5) Kilts in Scotland are a modified form of the Irish brat (a cloak, not an unruly child). Gaels came to Scotland from Ireland (although some on the board deny this), and at that time wore brats, not kilts.

6) The Irish in America suffered discrimination at one time, and many found refuge from that in joining the police or the fire department. For this reason, most pipe bands in America are Irish and represent police or fire departments. This is the principal reason why Americans tend to identify kilts as Irish, not mere confusion as some would have it, as most kilted men they see are marching in an ethnically Irish pipe band drawn from the local police or fire department.

7) This leads to kilts in Irish tartans, which originate as an Irish American thing. None of these tartans appear to pre-date the 1960s.

8) There is believed to be a minor revival of kilts in Ireland. Strangely, this appears to consist at least in part of wearing kilts for weddings, which is not exactly an unknown phenomenon in Scotland! However, most Irish do consider kilts to be Scottish, and civilian Irish pipe bands who once wore solid colour kilts and wore caubeens on their heads now tend to wear tartan kilts and Scottish headgear.

Hope this explains things, especially to the poster in England who is unlikely to otherwise get the Irish American angle. I will probably get flamed on some of these points, but all of them are true as far as I can ascertain.

[Theyoungkiltman]

I think another reason irish pubs, music and etc. Are more popular in america because of the fact that roi is a republic and some americans are xenophobic to Great Britain

[Ron Abbott]

[QUOTE=O'Callaghan;1242430]I'll try to keep this to the minimum.

5) Kilts in Scotland are a modified form of the Irish brat (a cloak, not an unruly child). Gaels came to Scotland from Ireland (although some on the board deny this), and at that time wore brats, not kilts.


Some on the board may be right in denying it. There are apparently a growing number of scholars who believe that it may not have been the case and one of their biggest arguments concerns architecture. At the top of my head I can't recall exactly what it is, but there are types of buildings/method of building all over Ireland from the period prior to and up to the times when the Gaels allegedly came over from Ireland that.....can subsequently be found nowhere in Scotland. Ditto that with a number of items as well.

There are those who say that it is more likely that one of the waves of people who inhabited Ireland and the west of Scotland arrived in the 'British Isles' around the same time and that due to their proximity across that narrow band of water and the massive trade that took place between them, they developed what was then, pretty much the same language and a similar culture.

If you haven't read them before, Alistair Moffat's books, 'The Sea Kingdoms-The History of Celtic Britain and Ireland', 'Before Scotland- The Story of Scotland Before History' and, 'Scotland's DNA' are well worth a read.

[TheOfficialBren]

As an American who lives in the United States I can with confidence say that most Americans don't know (or care) that there is a big difference between English and British. They should but they don't.

Secondly, Irish kilts seem to have been a thing briefly at the start of the twentieth century and during the Gaelic Revival. Conn Colbert (no relation, although pronounced the same [say the 't']) was famous for donning the kilt whilst acting as a revolutionary during the 1916 war. He was executed in 1916, ironically, if memory correctly serves, by a Scottish firing squad.

Conn Colbert is the chap at the far left of he photo leading the boys in their instruction.

[Ron Abbott]

The plastic paddies seem to have made the kilt popular and it certainly appears to mainly be an Irish-American thing.

One of the things that I don't like seeing is these pipe bands which normally appear to be in the US, sometimes Emerald Society or Fire Department pipe bands wearing outfits that are half Irish half Scots.....or something like that!

Feather bonnets on their heids, full hair sporrans, but perhaps with a saffron brat and kilt....and don't forget the wee tricolour on the bass drone.....

And then there are the 'quasi IRA outfits'......the ones with the saffron or green kilt, but with an army style jumper, caubeen and a pair of sun glasses on.......and not forgetting again......the wee tricolour on the bass drone.......look like they're on their way to Bobby Sands funeral!

[Ozark Ridge Rider]

Irish stuff is enjoying a period of popularity. Bands like the Pogues made it cool to a wide range of people and inspired other bands to remake the music in a punk mould.

Scottish folk stayed more traditional and their crossover acts aimed more to the adult contemporary and country markets. The folk rock influenced groups like Runrig and Silly Wizard appealed to the rockers rather than the punks and so that's a separate strand. You'll find a lot of Scottish folk in soft-seat theatres and folk festivals than in Irish pubs.

I play both Irish and Scottish music in order to stay busy. In fact, I grew up with Scottish Gaelic and instrumental music along side Anglo-Irish ballads and pub songs.

Scottish music doesn't seem to be as comfortable promoting the drinking music stereotype. It is, generally speaking, slower and more plaintive. We like being sad. The Irish have this kind of music also, but they balance that with the rousing drinking songs. Scottish music has some of these but far fewer than say, the Irish or Newfoundland traditions.

One main difference between Irish and Scottish pubs here is that all of the Irish pubs have a sound system or stage for live music and the Scottish pubs don't.

They make their money selling single malt and don't want to give up the table space I suppose.

The best way to find Scottish folk music is to check out the tour schedules of artists you like to see when they'll be coming your way.

Some to check out:

Natalie MacMaster
Julie Fowlis
Mary Jane Lamond
Ashley MacIsaac
Barry Shears
The Barra MacNeils
Cathy Anne MacPhee
Beolach
Alasdair Fraser
The Rankins
Old Blind Dogs
Ecosse
Wolfstone
Battlefield Band
Capercaillie
Enter the Haggis
Hadrian's Wall

Dinna' forget Ed Miller!