The ideal time for the black argyll

[Nathan]

I still may wear it on my next appearance at Tartan Tuesday, just to show it off.

Is that appearance going to happen this evening?

[Nathan]

I think a plain white shirt shows off the outfit---and yourself--- to best advantage. A very, very pale(light blue) plain coloured shirt may work on rare occasion, but I cannot see where a patterned shirt would be appropriate with a BBSBA.

This is an interesting point and I think you've confirmed an opinion I have that this jacket cannot be dressed all the way down to tweed equivalent. Some on this site think this jacket is the be all and end all of versatility, but it has its limits. In some circles, a patterned shirt is country attire. That said, they are showing up an awful lot in men's fashion magazines as proper office attire.



I am shown above wearing the BBSBA with a patterned shirt but I had just taken a photo with a tweed jacket on and didn't feel like fussing to change my shirt. I like the way this outfit looks but if I was reaching for this jacket, I'd most likely reach for a white shirt. That said, I think where I was heading would determine whether this look would drop any jaws.

[CMcG]

I think a plain white shirt shows off the outfit---and yourself--- to best advantage. A very, very pale(light blue) plain coloured shirt may work on rare occasion, but I cannot see where a patterned shirt would be appropriate with a BBSBA.

Here's a pale blue shirt worn with my black barathea silver button Argyll (BBSBA), with DIY "antiqued" buttons. This was taken at an evening event where I needed to dress up, but black tie would have been too formal. Going back to my earlier example in this thread about this type of jacket's versatility, it was the only jacket I brought with me for a nine month stint in Hong Kong because I knew I would have both black tie and dressy-but-not-formal events to attend. Luggage space was at a premium!


As for patterned shirts, I think they would better suit a BBSBA that had the silver buttons swapped for leather ones... that being said, Nathan still looks pretty sharp in his pic above, even if his personal flair is pushing dress code boundaries

[Jock Scot]

OK I think latent Saxon attire traditions are at work here.

First and foremost the BBSBA is FORMAL ---repeat FORMAL---- day kilt attire(adaptable for minor formal evening attire as well) so equivalent to the formal of formal Saxon day attire, the morning suit(which is not adaptable for evening attire). It really has little room for manoeuvre on that. It follows then, that the tweed argyll allows for all sorts of variations of shirts, events and uses, "below" the far less versatile and FORMAL BBSBA(black buttoned, black barathea argylls too, I suggest).

[plaid preacher]

Is that appearance going to happen this evening?

I had been hoping to join you all this evening, but I'm afraid work is getting in the way...plus my wife is out of town. At this point I am guardedly optimistic that I may get there in November.

[plaid preacher]

I think a plain white shirt shows off the outfit---and yourself--- to best advantage. A very, very pale(light blue) plain coloured shirt may work on rare occasion, but I cannot see where a patterned shirt would be appropriate with a BBSBA.

Thank you Jock. I suspected that this would be the predominant response. I blame highland attire!

My father was never a man for patterned or even coloured shirts. His wisdom, which he passed on to me, was that a white shirt goes with any suit, accented with a smart tie. The white shirt is still my default when in a suit (or kilt), but I have started purchasing more patterned shirts to wear with my day tweed.

[Dileasgubas]

Jock,

i agree with you. I tend to wear my Argyle a lot. However, I always wear it with a dress shirt, tie, and either a belt or waistcoat, and with highly polished shoes. Never informally and never with a patterned shirt, open collar or casual shoes. To me, the argyle is for formal occasions where a black tie might wind up being too much and where a tweed might be perceived as being too informal: a narrow band, perhaps but one in which there is definitely room for a formal order of dress, and which suits itself well to a dark coat, tie and shiny shoes. The argyle, therefore, works well for me.

My my rule of thumb is, when a black tie would be too much, perhaps an Argyle might work well. If not, go for tweed. After all, it is hard to knock a well dressed kilted gent dressed in a nice tweed, especially if the shoes are well polished and an attention paid to detail. The Argyle should therefore fit between tweeted and black tie.

[Jock Scot]

Jock,

i agree woth you. I tend to wear my Argyle a lot. However, I always wear it with a dress shirt, tie, and either a belt or waistcoat, and with highly polished shoes. Never informally and never with a patterned shirt, open collar or casual shoes. To me, the argyle is for formal occasions where a black tie might wind up being too much and where a tweed might be perceived as being too informal: a narrow band, perhaps but one in which there is definitely room for a formal order of dress, and which suits itself well to a dark coat, tie and shiny shoes. The argyle, therefore, works well for me.

My my rule of thumb is, when a black tie would be too much, perhaps an Argyle might work well. If not, go for tweed. After all, it is hard to knock a well dressed kilted gent dressed in a nice tweed, especially if the shoes are well polished and an attention paid to detail. The Argly should therefore fit between tweeted and black tie.

Alright, I think I detect a trans-Atlantic misunderstanding here. Perhaps I am wrong, but the above post seems to confirm a suspicion that I have had about this thread for some time, that many outwith the UK regard a suit as formal? Also in the UK, a "dress shirt" is not a shirt worn with a lounge/business suit. A "dress shirt" in UK terms is worn with formal black/white tie evening attire and a shirt worn with a suit is well, just a shirt.

To complicate things a tad, the formal morning suit does not actually require a "dress shirt", an ordinary white shirt(other coloured options are sometimes worn by some ) is required. So in the UK a morning suit is as formal as a "black/white tie" evening event, except its worn during the day.

So to put all that into kilt attire eqivalent. The tweed argyll is the equivalent of a Saxon business/lounge suit(not formal) and the BBSBA is eqivalent to the morning suit(day time formal). It follows then that the tweed argyll(with plain and patterned shirt options) covers everything from a BBQ up to and including events requiring a business/lounge suit----plus a tad on occasion. So extremely versatile and in fact covers far more options than the Saxon suit.

On the other hand the BBSBA, in its daytime mode, is formal(UK definition), it has no other place in daytime use.

I think it may help to remember that Saxon attire and kilt attire conventions started life from two very different places and cultures, so this idea that a tweed argyll, for example, is a sports coat is quite incorrect. For what it is worth, I think that if one chooses to wear kilt attire within the kilt attire conventions then it is down to those that want to do it properly to understand those kilt attire conventions, and to do that one has to ignore certain Saxon attire conventions completely, to grasp it. Then and only then, can one successfully "marry up" kilt attire conventions to a predominantly Saxon attire event.

Hope this helps.

[plaid preacher]

Bang on, Jock! The ocean that lies between us separates us more than in the geographical sense. In North America, any long-sleeved, collared, button-up shirt made of broad cloth is called a "dress shirt"; and I have always puzzled a little with our UK friends use of the term "Lounge suit". Everytime I hear that phrase Hugh Heffner in his satin pajamas come to mine; and I just can't picture Jock Scot in such a get-up.

Put simply, I do not think we have the same level of formality to our dress on this side of the Atlantic. I would dare say that many men never wear a tuxedo save for their wedding day; and these days jeans and a t-shirt is almost a uniform for many, and transcends all their social occasions. Unfortunately.

I appreciate your observation on tweed as well. Over here a tweed jacket is a "sportscoat" and is usually not considered as dressy as a suit in a gaberdine or other more finely woven fabric.

Such a great conversation.

[Father Bill]

Well, I think Jock is more than just correct on this. In my own lifetime, I remember when his description of "formal" and "business" was the one used in North America. As folks here have forgotten how to dress nicely (bl**dy baseball caps worn in restaurant dining rooms etc.) all of a sudden a business or lounge suit has been promoted up the vocabulary to "formal."

Bollocks! Add one more Auld Crabbit to the list. I hate seeing folks in restaurants dressed as if they're in the midst of cleaning out their garages or gardening. It's disrespectful to everyone else in the room and disgusting.