Box pleats

[figheadair]

as we know other additions were made to the plaids such as edging to prevent fraying.

Here I have to take issue. The long edges of traditional cloth had a selvedge and therefore did not fray. If you are referring to the side edges (as opposed to the top and bottom selvedges) of a plaid then, based on all the specimens, I've examined these were finished by the rough ends being turned twice (effectively rolled) and sewn down.

[Allan Thomson]

Here I have to take issue. The long edges of traditional cloth had a selvedge and therefore did not fray. If you are referring to the side edges (as opposed to the top and bottom selvedges) of a plaid then, based on all the specimens, I've examined these were finished by the rough ends being turned twice (effectively rolled) and sewn down.

There is evidence from portraits painted at the time that the belted plaid was amogst those with the means to do so edged with a seperated strip of cloth to prevent the edges fraying.

Again I'm not saying every plaid was like that and you have seen alternative ways of achieving the same effect.. But it was done in quiet a few cases.

Have a look at the Men at arms series on 18th C Highland Regiments and on the Jacobite rebellion, a series aimed at military model makers where portraits and uniform samples are examined to provide a reliable resource for military historians concerning the uniforms and clothing of that period.

It also documents the reuse of old plaids to make other garnments.

[figheadair]

There is evidence from portraits painted at the time that the belted plaid was amogst those with the means to do so edged with a seperated strip of cloth to prevent the edges fraying.

I wonder if you are referring to the portraits of the Champion and Piper to the Laird of Grant by Richard Waitt. It has been argued that these show some sort of binding but I'm not convinced not least because it would affect the movement of the cloth because it would have a different handle. Whilst an argument could be made for using a binding to secure the cut ends of the warp there is absolutely no such requirement along the edges because they were both selvedges. There is a strong counter argument to be made in the case of these two portraits that what is actually show is a selvedge mark, a decorative technique widely found on 18th century rural tartan.

Again I'm not saying every plaid was like that and you have seen alternative ways of achieving the same effect.. But it was done in quiet a few cases.

I must politely disagree. In over 40 years of research and having examined dozens of original specimens I have never seen one let along quite a few cases where any sort of binding was used. Such pieces have the benefit over books and portraits in being actual specimens that one can examine in detail.

[Allan Thomson]

I wonder if you are referring to the portraits of the Champion and Piper to the Laird of Grant by Richard Waitt. It has been argued that these show some sort of binding but I'm not convinced not least because it would affect the movement of the cloth because it would have a different handle. Whilst an argument could be made for using a binding to secure the cut ends of the warp there is absolutely no such requirement along the edges because they were both selvedges. There is a strong counter argument to be made in the case of these two portraits that what is actually show is a selvedge mark, a decorative technique widely found on 18th century rural tartan.



I must politely disagree. In over 40 years of research and having examined dozens of original specimens I have never seen one let along quite a few cases where any sort of binding was used. Such pieces have the benefit over books and portraits in being actual specimens that one can examine in detail.

The issue is when you're talking about surviving plaids you're only talking about a very small sample of what was actually about at the time, whereas more portraits have survived as those who tended to have them done passed them through families. Of the 18th C plaids you have studied how many were defi itely complete & how many were just samples? I'd be interestedto see your photos of the garnments?

I think we will differ but it makes sense to bind the edges as they are prone to fraying at least on the edges where cut & if we consider a plaid used in a thorny scrubby environment where it could easily become snagged. I'm convinced that the aforementioned pictures (I'm sure there is also one in the Men at Arms series of a chieftan with a distictive reinforcement along the edges of the plaid - though this was a reproduction plate but I'm sure it was basedon an original which was also depicted in the book).

Like I say what I am conjecturing is not what I necessarily think was the rule, but I'm convinced enough that there were some examples of plaids being taped at the edges. I have a manual loom made plaid 2 by 3 yards which is some 20 years old & which has only been worn occasionally but which suffered from some fraying on the cut edges despite having mainly been rolled up or used as a couch cover. But then all I've had access tois books, my own observations & family knowledge whereas I gather you have been in the priveliged position to view some 18thC original plaids unless I am misunderstanding you? I'm happy to be privy to your view even if it disagrees with my own.

[Tobus]

But then all I've had access tois books, my own observations & family knowledge whereas I gather you have been in the priveliged position to view some 18thC original plaids unless I am misunderstanding you?

I don't mean to jump into your conversation with figheadair, but you should know that this is the fellow you're disagreeing with: https://www.scottishtartans.co.uk/

Here are some of his research articles: https://www.scottishtartans.co.uk/research.htm

He certainly knows his stuff, and has been a wonderful source of factual information on the history of tartans, weaving, etc. It might not be a stretch to say that he knows more than anybody on the planet about this subject.

[Allan Thomson]

I don't mean to jump into your conversation with figheadair, but you should know that this is the fellow you're disagreeing with: https://www.scottishtartans.co.uk/

Here are some of his research articles: https://www.scottishtartans.co.uk/research.htm

He certainly knows his stuff, and has been a wonderful source of factual information on the history of tartans, weaving, etc. It might not be a stretch to say that he knows more than anybody on the planet about this subject.

Well he may well have been in a privileged position, but all academics welxome a bit of robust discussion & challenge. He may well agree or disagree with some of what I have to say.

Incidentally not all academics or leading authorities know obsolutely everyrhing. I remember some years back having a conversation with the curator of the black watch museum re a red stripe on the plaids of the grenadiees. She initially told me I was wrong and must be confusing the red stripe with the red hackle but I maintained my position. She later went away and had a conversation with her team who specialised in uniforms and then confirmed I had been correct. So even the lead curator can be wrong or unaware sometimes.

Not saying that fighadair is wrong or that I don't calue his input because I do. But I thibk he'd also agree that it's only fair to ask him if he can disseminate some of this information & evidence to the rest of us and anyone is free to make a hypothesis based on analysis and the evidence they have access to acxepting it is open to challenge. I've provided my reasoned out hypothesis based on the evidence & knowledge I have & am asking the esteemed gentleman if he would provide his evidence whixh leads him to a didderent conclusion I do. That's not meant as or intended as a disrespect & I hope he would not take it as such.

[Tobinn]

...what pleat style was decided upon? I like the alternating stripes - one and two.

[figheadair]

Well he may well have been in a privileged position, but all academics welxome a bit of robust discussion & challenge. He may well agree or disagree with some of what I have to say.

Incidentally not all academics or leading authorities know obsolutely everyrhing. I remember some years back having a conversation with the curator of the black watch museum re a red stripe on the plaids of the grenadiees. She initially told me I was wrong and must be confusing the red stripe with the red hackle but I maintained my position. She later went away and had a conversation with her team who specialised in uniforms and then confirmed I had been correct. So even the lead curator can be wrong or unaware sometimes.

Not saying that fighadair is wrong or that I don't calue his input because I do. But I thibk he'd also agree that it's only fair to ask him if he can disseminate some of this information & evidence to the rest of us and anyone is free to make a hypothesis based on analysis and the evidence they have access to acxepting it is open to challenge. I've provided my reasoned out hypothesis based on the evidence & knowledge I have & am asking the esteemed gentleman if he would provide his evidence whixh leads him to a didderent conclusion I do. That's not meant as or intended as a disrespect & I hope he would not take it as such.

Nothing wrong with a bit of robust discussion. You asked how many C18th plaids I’ve had an opportunity to examine, a rough estimate is 20-30, not many I concede in terms of what must have existed but more than there are portraits depicting the plaid. These plaids were either complete or sections i.e. an end piece in which the selvedge and at least one end are present. One obviously cannot determine anything out the construction of the edges of the many fragments of cloth from the same period that I’ve examined.

Some of these plaids I have discussed in papers dealing with the tartan, in particular I would point you to the ones on:
Fraser of Struy
Glenorchy, The Original Setting
MacDonald of Glenaladale

Happy to discuss the merits of individual portraits but they are always and in every case, the artist’s impression/interpretation, some are better than others but they can never replace examination of actual examples.