Tartan design & fabric weight: Question of general understanding?

[Tobus]

On a related note, I have a question for figheadair or anyone else knowledgeable about the weaving process.

How versatile are the looms for different weights of tartan? I would assume that each loom is only rated for a certain range of weights/thicknesses of yarns, and that trying to put thread on it that's too thick will break down the equipment as the friction or tightness of the weave goes beyond what it can handle.

Really, my question is why most weavers these days top out at 16 oz tartan. Is it because their looms can't handle anything beyond that? Or is it just that they choose not to stock the heavier yarns because of low customer demand? If someone really wanted an 18 oz or even 22 oz tartan custom-woven, does it take a special loom that almost nobody has any more?

Also, Steve mentioned to me that weavers tend to not want to handle tartan "in the grease" because it's messy on the equipment. But I thought "in the grease" simply meant that the tartan after weaving was not sent for scouring/washing/pressing, which wouldn't affect the actual weaving process. Am I wrong?

I'm really interested in a custom weave of the heaviest tartan I can get, with a larger-than-usual sett size, in double-width (or, as a last resort, a single-width that's woven to a "plaid sett" meant for joining as figheadair describes here), coarse cloth, in the grease. But it seems like there are roadblocks at every turn when trying to find a weaver who is capable of doing it. I'm faced with having to compromise on most of my choices, and still pay through the nose for it.

[figheadair]

On a related note, I have a question for figheadair or anyone else knowledgeable about the weaving process.

How versatile are the looms for different weights of tartan? I would assume that each loom is only rated for a certain range of weights/thicknesses of yarns, and that trying to put thread on it that's too thick will break down the equipment as the friction or tightness of the weave goes beyond what it can handle.

A loom is not a one size fits all piece of equipment and there are specialist looms for certain types of cloth. If we are talking about tartan then a good quality loom is capable of producing a wide range of cloth weights. The key requirement is to have more than one reed so that different densities of cloth can be woven. Different weights of yarn are also required, obviously.

Really, my question is why most weavers these days top out at 16 oz tartan. Is it because their looms can't handle anything beyond that? Or is it just that they choose not to stock the heavier yarns because of low customer demand? If someone really wanted an 18 oz or even 22 oz tartan custom-woven, does it take a special loom that almost nobody has any more?.

It's nothing to do with the loom and all to do with the yarn. A 16oz cloth is usually woven with a 2/16 worsted yarn. Heavier yarns are harder to come by, especially dyes yarns in tartan shades. Get the yarn and the cloth can be woven. There are other ways of achieving something similar. In the past D. C. Dalgliesh produced an F1 weight by double slaying their K7 (medium weight) yarn. The result was a superb, dense, 18oz yarn. Unfortunately they no longer weave this weight.

Also, Steve mentioned to me that weavers tend to not want to handle tartan "in the grease" because it's messy on the equipment. But I thought "in the grease" simply meant that the tartan after weaving was not sent for scouring/washing/pressing, which wouldn't affect the actual weaving process. Am I wrong?

Your right, 'in-the-grease' means cloth off the loom. It's coarser before it's finished and stiffer but definitely not greasy in a way that would affect a loom.

I'm really interested in a custom weave of the heaviest tartan I can get, with a larger-than-usual sett size, in double-width (or, as a last resort, a single-width that's woven to a "plaid sett" meant for joining as figheadair describes here), coarse cloth, in the grease. But it seems like there are roadblocks at every turn when trying to find a weaver who is capable of doing it. I'm faced with having to compromise on most of my choices, and still pay through the nose for it.

Getting a heavier yarn may be the difficult bit (not commercially viable I suspect); The rest however, is entirety possible. My experience is that I have to work out the loom draft for an offset warp as it's a mystery even for an experienced commercial weaver to understand. Once that is done, no problem.

[Tobus]

In the past D. C. Dalgliesh produced an F1 weight by double slaying their K7 (medium weight) yarn. The result was a superb, dense, 18oz yarn. Unfortunately they no longer weave this weight.

...

Getting a heavier yarn may be the difficult bit (not commercially viable I suspect); The rest however, is entirety possible. My experience is that I have to work out the loom draft for an offset warp as it's a mystery even for an experienced commercial weaver to understand. Once that is done, no problem.

Thanks, figheadair, that was a lot of useful information! So, given what you said above, do you think you could do a heavier weight tartan on your (single width?) loom by double-slaying lighter yarns like DC Dalgliesh used to do, and setting it up for an offset warp for a joinable plaid sett? Do you do custom weaves for people?

If I'm faced with only obtaining single-width for this due to the custom nature of it, I'm probably going to need 16 yards (assuming 9 for the MBP kilt and 7 for the day plaid).

[Steve Ashton]

I believe that House of Edgar still offer their RW or Regimental weights in double-width fabric. Limited Tartans but it can't hurt to ask about a custom run of Colquhoun (M) Tartan.

[Tobus]

That probably sounds like the only option for a commercial heavier-than-16oz tartan, Steve. Do you deal with them on a regular basis? I've been led to believe that most mills don't deal with individual customers, and that kiltmakers tend to get better responses. If they could do a custom run, that might just get me close to what I'm looking for. I do notice that they describe their regimental cloth as "highly finished", though. If they could skip that part and supply it unfinished or minimally finished, it would be even better.

Incidentally, I noticed that the chief of Clan Colquhoun, Sir Malcolm, wears what appears to be a custom weave with a large sett (front left in photo below). This would be about what I'm looking for in terms of sett size, though I don't know what weight his cloth is. Compared to the typical sett size of those around him, the difference is huge.

[figheadair]

Thanks, figheadair, that was a lot of useful information! So, given what you said above, do you think you could do a heavier weight tartan on your (single width?) loom by double-slaying lighter yarns like DC Dalgliesh used to do, and setting it up for an offset warp for a joinable plaid sett? Do you do custom weaves for people?

If I'm faced with only obtaining single-width for this due to the custom nature of it, I'm probably going to need 16 yards (assuming 9 for the MBP kilt and 7 for the day plaid).

At the moment my look is in pieces and stored away with no plans plans for any weaving at the momment. Sorry.

[Tobus]

I was afraid you'd say something like that.

Let me ask you this, then. If the big mills all let me down, is there any reason this can't be done by a local artisan/hobby weaver on a typical floor loom? Assuming I could work closely with someone in my area who has their own loom and we could work out the yarn weight and colours, ends per inch, thread count for the sett and offset warping, and other details, there's nothing magical about making tartan that can't be done by anyone with a decent loom? It should just be a matter of setting the warp threads to the right pattern and then counting in each weft thread as they go, and it gets woven like any other twill cloth. Right?

I mean, tartan used to be woven in households all across the Highlands (so I'm led to believe) on small looms rather than industrial machines. For instance, I'm watching videos like this one below on YouTube. Couldn't a local experienced artisan weaver produce the kind of cloth I'm looking for on a loom like this?

*edit: the video tags don't seem to be working to embed a video, so you'll have to click the link.

https://youtu.be/bH8ypklW7R0?t=113

[figheadair]

I was afraid you'd say something like that.

Let me ask you this, then. If the big mills all let me down, is there any reason this can't be done by a local artisan/hobby weaver on a typical floor loom? Assuming I could work closely with someone in my area who has their own loom and we could work out the yarn weight and colours, ends per inch, thread count for the sett and offset warping, and other details, there's nothing magical about making tartan that can't be done by anyone with a decent loom? It should just be a matter of setting the warp threads to the right pattern and then counting in each weft thread as they go, and it gets woven like any other twill cloth. Right?

I mean, tartan used to be woven in households all across the Highlands (so I'm led to believe) on small looms rather than industrial machines. For instance, I'm watching videos like this one below on YouTube. Couldn't a local experienced artisan weaver produce the kind of cloth I'm looking for on a loom like this?

*edit: the video tags don't seem to be working to embed a video, so you'll have to click the link.

https://youtu.be/bH8ypklW7R0?t=113

In principle, yes. You'll need to find a competent weaver as offset cloth, especially one with a selvedge mark or selvedge pattern is not beginner's work. You also want one who has a heavier loom for beating the cloth. Here's mine - https://www.facebook.com/31835354860...4006860373373/

[Tobus]

It's nothing to do with the loom and all to do with the yarn. A 16oz cloth is usually woven with a 2/16 worsted yarn. Heavier yarns are harder to come by, especially dyes yarns in tartan shades. Get the yarn and the cloth can be woven. There are other ways of achieving something similar. In the past D. C. Dalgliesh produced an F1 weight by double slaying their K7 (medium weight) yarn. The result was a superb, dense, 18oz yarn. Unfortunately they no longer weave this weight.


Getting a heavier yarn may be the difficult bit (not commercially viable I suspect); The rest however, is entirety possible. My experience is that I have to work out the loom draft for an offset warp as it's a mystery even for an experienced commercial weaver to understand. Once that is done, no problem.

figheadair, a couple more questions if I may.

What is K7 yarn? I can't find any reference to its size. Is it a 2/20 or something lighter? And if one were to double-sley them and treat each of these pairs as a single yarn for counting purposes, what would be resultant ends-per-inch be for an 18oz tartan?

I'm also wondering what the complexity is with doing an offset warp. Not being a weaver, I would think it should be as simple as having the selvedge end at a halfway point in a colour block so it can be joined edge-to-edge at that point and end up with the same width block as the rest of the sett. Provided that the other selvedge side ends at a visually pleasing point in the pattern, of course. Is there something else to it that makes it complicated?