Kilt sizing confusion

[Darrin1200]

Well, I actually just bought a second kilt yesterday. Used, and a really good price.
Unfortunately, I appear to have gotten the size wrong again.

First, my size as I understand
36.5”- Pant size (waist)
38.25”- Kilt size (belly button)
23.5”- Length (belly button to floor while kneeling)


Used, but in great shape. Supposedly purchased in Edinburgh
Brand- The Kilt
I believe it called a casual kilt
Rayon/Acetate
Black Watch
Size 38-40
Length 24
Closing method- One strap on each side at the top of the kilt

If I put this kilt on (top of kilt 1” above belly button), it is a hair long, but acceptable. But with the straps pulled all the way closed (one strap each side) the kilt is to big. With a light hop, it falls off.
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My other, kilt ordered from the States
Brand- UTKilt
Standard Utility Kilt
Polyviscose material
Highland Gray
Size 40 (when ordered, my waist was a hair over 39”)
Length 22”
Closing method- double snaps on each side with two buckles on the right at the waist (3-4” from top)

With this kilt on (top of kilt at belly button), it just reaches the top of my knees. With the straps pulled all the way closed, it will stay up as long as I’m not overly active. ie…normal walking around the house.
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In my mind, both of these kilts should fit at the tightest setting. The Utility kilt I can get away with, and the belt helps but is more accessory than requirement. The Black Watch one however, I have to wear a belt, and it scrunches up the waist a little.

I always believed, if it’s a little large you can wear a belt. But if it’s two small your screwed. From the measurements above, do you believe I should have gone to the lower size? Does the style of kilt have a large effect on fitting?

I will probably end up reselling the Black Watch kilt. I’ll give it a wash, and wear it for a day to see how it feels, but it will likely move on to a new home.

Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

Darrin

[Father Bill]

Hi!

A kilt should fit correctly without a belt. Putting one on to cinch it in just distorts the pleats. Belts aren't even recommended.

In terms of measuring for size, every kiltmaker has their own prefered set of measurements. They are not transferrable from one kiltmaker to another, so use the measurements they ask for and take them the way they ask for them. Some of them ask for measurements that frankly have little to do with kilts. Avoid those makers like the plague (COVID or plague of your choice).

[Darrin1200]

Hi!

A kilt should fit correctly without a belt. Putting one on to cinch it in just distorts the pleats. Belts aren't even recommended.

In terms of measuring for size, every kiltmaker has their own prefered set of measurements. They are not transferrable from one kiltmaker to another, so use the measurements they ask for and take them the way they ask for them. Some of them ask for measurements that frankly have little to do with kilts. Avoid those makers like the plague (COVID or plague of your choice).

Thanks Father Bill

At least if I go back to UTKilts, I know to go one size down.

A couple more questions.
Do the locations of the buckles indicate where the kilt should be worn? ie..do the buckles fit at the hollow above the hips?

Is the top of the kilt supposed to taper in at the hips?

[DunRovinStation]

Especially with vintage, I wouldn't go by a listed size, but rather an actual measurement.

Fabric can stretch/relax over time, as well as labels being decade/maker specific.
Did the seller just list the size that was on the label? Or did they actually measure the garment at the waist?

[Steve Ashton]

I'll second the comment by Father Bill. And expand on it just a bit.

Where and how a kilt is measured is dependent on the kilt maker and how the kilt is intended to be worn.

The belly button is on soft tissue and can be in totally different places on different guys. So using the belly button as a reference is a really poor way to describe where to measure.
The same goes for using pants size. Size 36 by Levi's jeans is totally different than size 36 by Lee jeans.
And have you ever seen a guy wearing jeans of one size down at his hips while at his belly button he is significantly larger?

We normally use the bones of the body as bones can't move.

There are three places on a human body where a kilt can, and usually is, worn. Depending on the style of the kilt. Both of the kilts you have are usually called "Pub kilts". Both are made
in Pakistan.

A kilt made and designed to be worn in the military or "traditional" manner will have the top straps cinch into the anatomical waist. If you put a finger just under your ribs at the side - and bend into your finger - you will feel the finger go into a hollow. That is the anatomical waist. On this style of kilt, the top of the kilt will fit just over the bottom of the ribs.

Many kilts made today are designed to fit a little lower than the anatomical waist. Most of this style will have the straps fit just on top of the hip bones.

Some kilts, like the Utilikilt brand are designed to fit where jeans fit. The top strap sits down, below the top of the hip bones.

Here is an example of the three different kilt waist heights.



It is strongly suggested that you wear the kilt, where it was designed to be worn. If you have a kilt designed to be worn at a high waist height - and you choose to wear it lower than it was designed to be worn - the bottom of the kilt will end up below the top of the knees and the back will probably show distinct shower curtain folds in the rear.



And you may sit on the pleat stitching causing a failure as seen above.


There is then the issue that some kiltmakers size their kilts to fit on the first hole of the strap. Some use the middle hole and some the last hole.

So, to second Father Bill - Know what system the person who made your kilt uses, where they designed the kilt to fit, and always, always use the measuring system of the person who makes your kilt. Never use one kiltmakers measuring system to size another kiltmakers kilts.

[Steve Ashton]

OH, and the old "Measure the length of the kilt while kneeling" is an old kiltmakers trick. And only applies to kilts made in the older style of military or "Traditional" kilts.

This comes from the way that military and "Traditional" kilts are made. The top strap on this style of kilt is 2 inches below the top band of the kilt.
This portion above the top straps is called the "Rise".

The smallest part of the kilt is at the level of the top straps.
The rise of a "Traditional" kilt tapers outward to fit over the bottom of the ribs.





This style of kilt has a "Drop" length measured from the center of the top strap down to the bottom edge. (Called the Selvedge)
The total length of the kilt is Drop + Rise.

So the trick is that the maker would have the person kneel. They would measure from the bottom of the ribs, down to the floor.

But when they made the kilt - the straps are placed 2 inches below the top of the kilt - which would raise the entire garment up by 2 inches.

This would bring the bottom of the kilt right to the top of the knee cap.

[Steve Ashton]

Most of the kilts made today are not designed, or are designed incorrectly, with no "Rise".

The smallest part of the kilt is at the top band.



This means that the kilt will "settle" after some time until the smallest part of the kilt is at the smallest part of the body. This is why so many kilts end up lower after being worn for a while and the person feels a need for a belt to hold the kilt up.

Also, perhaps because they don't know about Rise, many kilts today are measured with the total length being from the top band, down to the bottom Selvedge.

[Darrin1200]

Especially with vintage, I wouldn't go by a listed size, but rather an actual measurement.

Fabric can stretch/relax over time, as well as labels being decade/maker specific.
Did the seller just list the size that was on the label? Or did they actually measure the garment at the waist?

He used the measurement off of the label. For $40, I figured it was worth a shot.

[Pleater]

Thanks Father Bill

At least if I go back to UTKilts, I know to go one size down.

A couple more questions.
Do the locations of the buckles indicate where the kilt should be worn? ie..do the buckles fit at the hollow above the hips?

Is the top of the kilt supposed to taper in at the hips?

The buckles on a traditional kilt are usually a little way down from the top edge - that top part is the rise, and it flares out slightly as the buckles are at the waist - the narrowest part. Below the waist the pleats should be shaped to fit smoothly just loose enough to fit yourself and shirt ect. inside without straining the stitching or the cloth. Once the sewn part, the fell, reaches the roundest part of the rump the pleats should then fall free and straight down, at least when standing still.
Sometimes a kilt is made without the flare, and with the narrowest part at the very top - that is not right, and it can sometimes give the opportunity to make a narrower waist at the right level. Woollen cloth is malleable, so as long as there isn't some chunk of plastic-y material included in the structure it would be possible to carefully insert a piece of sturdy tape or webbing two inches down from the edge, draw in the fabric, attach the straps and buckles at that level (onto the tape/webbing) and with a bit of pressing have a kilt which is at least the right shape and likely to be a better fit than one which is just a straight / \

Anne the Pleater

[Steve Ashton]

The kilts that carry a label like this -



And sold in almost every shop on the Royal Mile of Edinburgh are actually made in Pakistan.
The sizing of these kilts is kind of arbitrary. I have compared, side by side, as many as 4 of these kilts at a time, and found as much as three inches difference between them, with the exact same size on the label.

And what the heck is 100% Acrylic Wool? Plastic sheep?