Black tie, Prince Charlie, but the tie is DECIDEDLY not black

[OC Richard]

I guess you also saw that guy at the Loch Norman games the year you attended.

Ha!! I don't remember that particular guy.

Sadly anybody who attends our California/Nevada/Arizona Games sees this stuff regularly.

I don't know how the Prince Charlie + pirate shirt thing became cemented in the American mind as "traditional Highland Dress" but it's everywhere.

One question: when wearing a pirate shirt with Evening Dress, should the shirt collar be in, or out?

[MacKenzie]

One question: when wearing a pirate shirt with Evening Dress, should the shirt collar be in, or out?

Richard, Richard, Richard... for evening dress it's collarless. Aka band collar.

[Janner52]

In reply to your question Richard.
I would say either.
Out of sight or in the dark!

[Allan Thomson]

That is handy to know and I am not surprised. Thank you.

Blakeney's foot was His Majesties Enniskillen Foot... so there's an Irish Government Regiment for you too

[jsrnephdoc]

When I started this thread, I expected some objections to my suggestions about wearing a "Notre-Dame Rose Window" bow tie paired with a Prince Charlie. I've learned quite a bit from the replies, including about an aversion to pairing a tartan tie to the same tartan for daywear featuring an Argyll jacket. My inquiries have led me on a different path, to different conclusions and different concerns.

One of the issues, I think, is that the fully conforming black tie outfit runs the risk of being boring, hence the proliferation of ideas for accents. Some of those yield dreadful results. One need only look at the American telecasts of the annual 1st quarter entertainment "awards" ceremonies, where formal dress is the rule but where the variations from it can descend to the absolutely ridiculous. I hesitated to purchase my (predominantly pink) Notre-Dame Rose Window commemorating bow tie because of that, but boxed myself into a need to learn how to TIE ON ONE myself because the pre-tied version sold out so quickly at the retailer.

Along the way, the separate thread discussing the color of one's kilt hose led to similar conclusions, but also to a search for tattersall shirts and club ties for pairing with an Argyll jacket, as suggested by OC Richard. And THAT uncovered something I didn't expect to realize at ALL. Neckwear is actually DISAPPEARING from business and event daywear. For example, OC Richard has suggested that an appropriate coordination with the Argyll Jacket in the UK would be a Collegiate/University, or Professional Society, or avocation-based logo tie, perhaps coordinated with a tattersall shirt. So, I visited the websites of the bookstores of my undergraduate college and University Medical School (each of those institutions more than 200 years old), only to learn that while sweatshirts, running shorts and T-shirts were available in a panoply of variants, NEITHER sold ANY "school colors" or "school mascot logo" silk neckwear.

Even the "Bow-Tie Club" retailer (where the number of styles on offer comes close to matching the number of tartans one can find at an upscale Edinburgh kilt retailer) had none on offer. Their principals offered a plausible explanation—a fear of litigation related to licensing issues for educational or business or recreational organizations. They DO have an impressive array of tartan bows, of course, but I'd guess those are all in traditional and non-restricted tartans. Curiously, I also found a "Glen Affric " bow, the color palette of which bears no resemblance whatsoever to the recently unearthed and restored Glen Affric tartan.

Of course, this trend just reflects a much broader tension between "rules" and "usage," which likely will survive us all.

[jsrnephdoc]

One question: when wearing a pirate shirt with Evening Dress, should the shirt collar be in, or out?

One OTHER question: what IS that thing crawling up the front of the Prince Charlie (presumably buttoned, but still exposing white shirt above the too-low-lying kilt) in the picture lower left? To me, it looks like an antiqued brass beetle.

[OC Richard]

One OTHER question: what IS that thing crawling up the front of the Prince Charlie (presumably buttoned, but still exposing white shirt above the too-low-lying kilt) in the picture lower left? To me, it looks like an antiqued brass beetle.

That's just a watermark, or perhaps more appropriately, a copyright bug.

[Tomo]

the fully conforming black tie outfit runs the risk of being boring

...but if you are wearing a kilt - that should speak for itself

[kiltedsawyer]

That's just a watermark, or perhaps more appropriately, a copyright bug.

Or perhaps both; a water bug.

[FossilHunter]

When I started this thread, I expected some objections to my suggestions about wearing a "Notre-Dame Rose Window" bow tie paired with a Prince Charlie. I've learned quite a bit from the replies, including about an aversion to pairing a tartan tie to the same tartan for daywear featuring an Argyll jacket. My inquiries have led me on a different path, to different conclusions and different concerns.

One of the issues, I think, is that the fully conforming black tie outfit runs the risk of being boring, hence the proliferation of ideas for accents. Some of those yield dreadful results. One need only look at the American telecasts of the annual 1st quarter entertainment "awards" ceremonies, where formal dress is the rule but where the variations from it can descend to the absolutely ridiculous. I hesitated to purchase my (predominantly pink) Notre-Dame Rose Window commemorating bow tie because of that, but boxed myself into a need to learn how to TIE ON ONE myself because the pre-tied version sold out so quickly at the retailer.

Along the way, the separate thread discussing the color of one's kilt hose led to similar conclusions, but also to a search for tattersall shirts and club ties for pairing with an Argyll jacket, as suggested by OC Richard. And THAT uncovered something I didn't expect to realize at ALL. Neckwear is actually DISAPPEARING from business and event daywear. For example, OC Richard has suggested that an appropriate coordination with the Argyll Jacket in the UK would be a Collegiate/University, or Professional Society, or avocation-based logo tie, perhaps coordinated with a tattersall shirt. So, I visited the websites of the bookstores of my undergraduate college and University Medical School (each of those institutions more than 200 years old), only to learn that while sweatshirts, running shorts and T-shirts were available in a panoply of variants, NEITHER sold ANY "school colors" or "school mascot logo" silk neckwear.

Even the "Bow-Tie Club" retailer (where the number of styles on offer comes close to matching the number of tartans one can find at an upscale Edinburgh kilt retailer) had none on offer. Their principals offered a plausible explanation—a fear of litigation related to licensing issues for educational or business or recreational organizations. They DO have an impressive array of tartan bows, of course, but I'd guess those are all in traditional and non-restricted tartans. Curiously, I also found a "Glen Affric " bow, the color palette of which bears no resemblance whatsoever to the recently unearthed and restored Glen Affric tartan.

Of course, this trend just reflects a much broader tension between "rules" and "usage," which likely will survive us all.

Something to keep in mind is that the association/club/regimental tie tradition originated in the UK and has never been as popular in the US. That, combined with the general decline of neckwear contributes to a dearth of ties for those of us looking for them in the US. Often American university ties will have the logos of their athletic departments rather than that of the university. One option would be to buy a striped tie in your university’s colors.