Glamis Castle Prince Charles Edward Stuart tartan

[OC Richard]

...did any serious discussion, historically speaking, take place about these differences of sett size and colour within tartans in general and these tartans in particular?

I don't know about discussions which might have been had, but the Wilsons certainly did a large amount of tinkering with their designs.

Witness all the various proportions seen in the Prince Charles Edward Stuart tartan above. These weren't accidents but deliberate design choices.

And look at all the various colours employed, also deliberate design choices.

We can't ask Van Gogh about why he chose this or that colour, or this or that brush-stroke, or this or that composition. We have to study his paintings if we want to come to some kind of understanding as to why he made the choices he did.

Ditto the Wilsons. If we could travel back to the 2nd half of the 18th century we could ask them why they chose the proportions, colours, and sett-sizes they did. But like with Van Gogh's paintings, Wilsons tartans can tell us all these things if we look carefully enough.

Now why am I spending time (not much, in truth) reconstructing some of Wilsons patterns?

One of the painting classes I had in University had us do one painting copying Van Gogh's style, another Monet's, another Munch's, etc. (Not copying one of their paintings, but rather doing an original painting in their style.)

The instructor felt we would learn more about an artist's style by actually trying to paint in that style than by any amount of talking. He was right.

We experience art by looking at it and creating it, not by talking about it.

Thus what I should be doing is weaving these old patterns, rather than being lazy and quick and doing CGI. Indeed I can learn nothing about Wilsons weaving unless I weave.

That's what Peter has done, the craft of the weaver, and he has gained tremendous insights from it.

I'm merely approaching old tartans as graphic designs. In doing so I'm doing them a disservice.

[OC Richard]

Prince Charles Edward Stuart and some of its Wilsons relatives, showing the Wilsons' endless tinkering with their designs.

For this comparison I've lined up the red band bordered by green stipes, which also aligns the red band bordered by Azure stripes.

This goes against my impulse to follow the "Stewart motif" (for lack of a better term) which on the righthand two tartans occurs with the red band bordered by green stripes, but has been shifted over to the red band bordered by the blue stripes on the lefthand tartan.

In #43/Kidd/Caldonia/MacPherson it's been disappeared from the red band bordered by the green stripes, and is inchoate in the red band bordered by the Azure stripes.

[figheadair]

Prince Charles Edward Stuart and some of its Wilsons relatives, showing the Wilsons' endless tinkering with their designs.

Richard,

Some other popular Wilsons' designs that clearly show PCES influence.

[Jock Scot]

I don't know about discussions which might have been had, but the Wilsons certainly did a large amount of tinkering with their designs.

Witness all the various proportions seen in the Prince Charles Edward Stuart tartan above. These weren't accidents but deliberate design choices.

And look at all the various colours employed, also deliberate design choices.

We can't ask Van Gogh about why he chose this or that colour, or this or that brush-stroke, or this or that composition. We have to study his paintings if we want to come to some kind of understanding as to why he made the choices he did.

Ditto the Wilsons. If we could travel back to the 2nd half of the 18th century we could ask them why they chose the proportions, colours, and sett-sizes they did. But like with Van Gogh's paintings, Wilsons tartans can tell us all these things if we look carefully enough.

Now why am I spending time (not much, in truth) reconstructing some of Wilsons patterns?

One of the painting classes I had in University had us do one painting copying Van Gogh's style, another Monet's, another Munch's, etc. (Not copying one of their paintings, but rather doing an original painting in their style.)

The instructor felt we would learn more about an artist's style by actually trying to paint in that style than by any amount of talking. He was right.

We experience art by looking at it and creating it, not by talking about it.

Thus what I should be doing is weaving these old patterns, rather than being lazy and quick and doing CGI. Indeed I can learn nothing about Wilsons weaving unless I weave.

That's what Peter has done, the craft of the weaver, and he has gained tremendous insights from it.

I'm merely approaching old tartans as graphic designs. In doing so I'm doing them a disservice.

Oh of course the tartan designer had/has a huge input into the production of a tartan and of course the tartan weaver had/has a large commercial interest in the product too. But....

I am asking what the general interest is in the tartan design in respect of the sett and colours. I am wondering about how much of the tartan design theory..........actually matters to the general kilt wearing public? The customer. As an example , I am aware that there are people wearing their Clan tartan and absolutely loath the colours ,the sett, or both that is commercially available to them. Of course there are others who like the design of the tartan they are wearing.

I quite understand that the artistic content, the colours and the sett, of a tartan is the brain child of the designer, I also understand the commercial aspect from the weavers point of view and of course the Clansman who might hopefully purchase “his” tartan. But how many potential customers are actually genuinely interested in the theory of the design process in regard to the sett design and the colours chosen on a day to day basis? Who knows? Not that many I suggest.

[figheadair]

But how many potential customers are actually genuinely interested in the theory of the design process in regard to the sett design and the colours chosen on a day to day basis? Who knows? Not that many I suggest.

I have no doubt that you are right Jock. Whilst this is definitely of interest to some of us, more people simply do not have that level of interest, nor is there any reason why they should. That said, in discussing such 'technicalities' it is an opportunity to broaden interest and more importantly, dispell some of the more egregious myths that surround both tartan and Highland Dress.