A "restricted" Robertson Tartan?

[jsrnephdoc]

Yesterday I bumped into a YouTube discussion between the principals at USA Kilts regarding "forbidden," "restricted," and "Oh my God, I would NEVER wear THAT" tartans. Don't know why it appeared in the sidebar of my browser, but I clicked the link and watched a good bit of it. They talked about why no one but the Royal Family members would ever be countenanced wearing Balmoral, why it might not be cool to wear Black Watch in Ireland, why some organization-related tartans have symbolic exclusivity, and why "family" tartans generally can be worn by anyone in Scotland just because the wearer likes them.

However, mentioned in passing was a dust-up with a Robertson Clan Chieftan's "personal" tartan, but that was not elaborated upon.

Does anyone here know the story behind that? Nothing I could find on the Scottish Register of Tartans website provided a clue

[figheadair]

However, mentioned in passing was a dust-up with a Robertson Clan Chieftan's "personal" tartan, but that was not elaborated upon.

Does anyone here know the story behind that? Nothing I could find on the Scottish Register of Tartans website provided a clue

I wonder if it was a reference to the Robertson with the white line that is sometimes (without authority) referred as 'the chief's sett'. It is worn by the current chief.

[jsrnephdoc]

I wonder if it was a reference to the Robertson with the white line that is sometimes (without authority) referred as 'the chief's sett'. It is worn by the current chief.

Thanks so much! Maybe that's it.

I must admit that, even though I began wearing bits of it even before I started grammar school, I've never been especially fond of the classic "stoplight" red Robertson tartan. I didn't know that there was a historical reference to the possibility you suggest at the STA website. My parents (now both deceased 18 and 28 years ago) attended two clan gatherings in Pitlochry, and I actually have a photo or two of them posing with the then chief. I'll try to find those pics. Is it considered a faux pas for ordinary wearers of he family tartan to choose that variant?

Apologies if this is too much an attempt to gather knowledge without working at it myself, but could you say something about the origins of the Robertson of Struan tartan, and why it's so denoted? Also, I note that on the STA website there are two DC Dalgliesh Robertson "Fashion" tartans, one of them asymmetrical and just too busy, but the other actually attractive to my eye (enough so that there might be some cloth hanging around to be dispensed by whomever has acquired DC Dalgliesh's inventory). Neither of those is listed as "restricted" (as are many "Fashion" tartans). If they WERE restricted, does that succumb along with the existence of the original registrant (DC Dalgiesh)?

And, I'll pile on one MORE question: what about a "restriction" imposed by a designer who seems to have lost interest in the tartan itself? I'm speaking of "The Nursing Tartan," which I discovered on my most recent visit to Scotland in 2023. My spouse was not with me during that visit, but I brought home a scarf. The restrictions included being woven solely by Lochcarron and being retailed only by Gordon Nicolson, and to only a certain limited number of applications (including no kilts, but I did once see a pair of "ex hire" trews made from it on Gordon Nicolson's website).. I've been attempting to obtain a kilt made from it for almost 3 years now but seem unable to rekindle interest in the project from its "official" registered nurse designers.

[figheadair]

Is it considered a faux pas for ordinary wearers of he family tartan to choose that variant?

It is certainly less common nowadays but in the 1820-30s it was a stock tartan as this c.1830 specimen confirms.

Apologies if this is too much an attempt to gather knowledge without working at it myself, but could you say something about the origins of the Robertson of Struan tartan, and why it's so denoted? Also, I note that on the STA website there are two DC Dalgliesh Robertson "Fashion" tartans, one of them asymmetrical and just too busy, but the other actually attractive to my eye (enough so that there might be some cloth hanging around to be dispensed by whomever has acquired DC Dalgliesh's inventory). Neither of those is listed as "restricted" (as are many "Fashion" tartans). If they WERE restricted, does that succumb along with the existence of the original registrant (DC Dalgiesh)?

The Robertson of Struan first appeared in Volume II of the Highland Society of London's collection (1906-34). Presumably it was submitted by the then chief but beyond that, nothing is known of its origins.



The graphics are misleading, neither of the Dalgliesh dress tartans are asymmetrical. The firm is no longer and I assume that there is therefore no restrictions on either sett.

And, I'll pile on one MORE question: what about a "restriction" imposed by a designer who seems to have lost interest in the tartan itself? I'm speaking of "The Nursing Tartan," which I discovered on my most recent visit to Scotland in 2023. My spouse was not with me during that visit, but I brought home a scarf. The restrictions included being woven solely by Lochcarron and being retailed only by Gordon Nicolson, and to only a certain limited number of applications (including no kilts, but I did once see a pair of "ex hire" trews made from it on Gordon Nicolson's website).. I've been attempting to obtain a kilt made from it for almost 3 years now but seem unable to rekindle interest in the project from its "official" registered nurse designers.

According to the SRT entry there are no specific weaver or end use restrictions on the Nursing tartan. Have you tried contacting the Register?

[jsrnephdoc]

The Robertson of Struan first appeared in Volume II of the Highland Society of London's collection (1906-34). Presumably it was submitted by the then chief but beyond that, nothing is known of its origins.

and

The graphics are misleading, neither of the Dalgliesh dress tartans are asymmetrical. The firm is no longer and I assume that there is therefore no restrictions on either sett.

Here's the image of the DC Dalgliesh "Robertson Dress 2" from the STA website:

I hope you'll permit me to display my feeble understandings of tartan design. If the sett of the tartan repeats is defined by the pairs of intersecting red stripes passing through "whitish" blocks, does not the repeating pattern—but not in mirror images—of green to the left and blue to the right within the larger blocks make the entire tartan "asymmetrical?" Of course, since DC Dalgliesh is gone, the images alone don't convey accurate predictions of what either of those two "fashion" tartans would look like in the cloth when compared with one another.

And, looking at the STA website entries once again I see that although both tartans are listed as "fashion" tartan, there's nothing that indicates the DC Dalgliesh mill created either for a specific customer, meaning (perhaps) that because DC Dalgliesh is no more, Unrestricted products that it produced are not the sole intellectual property of a successor, even if they WERE created initially for a specific customer, but with a likely corollary that even though they're probably NOT protected and could be woven by any mill willing to do so, it's quite likely that would be a VERY expensive proposition. I know there's another thread active on <XmarkstheScot> that discusses what the acquirer of DC Dalgliesh's inventory of fabric and yarn plans to do with it, and perhaps I should take a peek there as well.

I ask this largely from a curiosity standpoint, because when I've watched videos from USA Kilts, Rocky has intimated that "Registration" at the STA or its predecessors doesn't convey an analogous legal protection to "copyright" protection in the USA. I know for CERTAIN that I'm not an attorney, and I believe you're a historian rather than a barrister, so I'm just asking for a common man's understanding of the difference

But, if you'll permit, I'll pick your historian's cerebrum again about my family's cloth. One of the "red" Robertson tartans listed at the STA seems to have been "invented" by the Sobieski Stewarts, but it bears an uncanny resemblance to the Wilson's of Bannockburn design that is what most people who think about such things call from memory when they think of "Robertson Red."

Lastly

According to the SRT entry there are no specific weaver or end use restrictions on the Nursing tartan. Have you tried contacting the Register?

When first I saw cloth of this tartan in 2023 (at Locharron Mill) I was informed that the designers "restricted" it's sale solely to Gordon Nicolson Kiltmaker, and that shop's permission to make products from it to a specific range specified by the designer (in part because the designers, members of the Scottish National Health Service nursing corps, specified that EVERY sale of products made from it would include a donation TO the National Health Service's nursing organization. Of course, that's probably not the same as restrictions included in the design's STA registration (or, at least, that's not what I'm coming to understand).

All of this is primarily intellectual musing on my part, but because of her own affection for her status as a (retired) Registered Nurse and her own sartorial tastes, my spouse remains interested in obtaining a ladies kilt made from the fabric, which she finds FAR more attractive than the Robertson Ancient Hunting calf length kilt skirt I obtained for her a year ago and which she's agreed to wear only once (to our last Burns Supper). Here it is, for the curious:

It's my understanding that the intent of the design was to utilize the colors in the Scottish National Health Service nursing uniforms IN tartan to celebrate and support their work.

I did manage to communicate with the listed registrant once in 2023, who confirmed for me that agreements existed that it would be woven solely by Lochcarron for sale solely to Nicolson and for use solely in products approved by a committee of the registrants. The latest I've heard is that there is "talk" of production of another run of cloth early next year, but nothing definite.

So, a few different scenarios, two just to increase my understanding of tartan history, another to help me convince my reluctant spouse to wear tartan.

Thanks so much,
Jim Robertson

[figheadair]

Here's the image of the DC Dalgliesh "Robertson Dress 2" from the STA website:

I think you mean the Scottish Register of Tartans' (SRT) website, not the STA's which is being rebuild at present.

I hope you'll permit me to display my feeble understandings of tartan design. If the sett of the tartan repeats is defined by the pairs of intersecting red stripes passing through "whitish" blocks, does not the repeating pattern—but not in mirror images—of green to the left and blue to the right within the larger blocks make the entire tartan "asymmetrical?" Of course, since DC Dalgliesh is gone, the images alone don't convey accurate predictions of what either of those two "fashion" tartans would look like in the cloth when compared with one another.[/QUOTE]

You are quite right, this one is asymmetric. The STA's Master Db, which is has three similar entries and so having the one in question is helpful.

And, looking at the STA website entries once again I see that although both tartans are listed as "fashion" tartan, there's nothing that indicates the DC Dalgliesh mill created either for a specific customer, meaning (perhaps) that because DC Dalgliesh is no more, Unrestricted products that it produced are not the sole intellectual property of a successor, even if they WERE created initially for a specific customer, but with a likely corollary that even though they're probably NOT protected and could be woven by any mill willing to do so, it's quite likely that would be a VERY expensive proposition. I know there's another thread active on <XmarkstheScot> that discusses what the acquirer of DC Dalgliesh's inventory of fabric and yarn plans to do with it, and perhaps I should take a peek there as well.

SRT, not STA. Without access to the actual samples, if they still exist, it is difficult to comment authoritatively. Given the complexities of the sett is it possible the one or other is the result of a transcribing error, possibly for working with a small/incomplete specimen.

I ask this largely from a curiosity standpoint, because when I've watched videos from USA Kilts, Rocky has intimated that "Registration" at the STA or its predecessors doesn't convey an analogous legal protection to "copyright" protection in the USA. I know for CERTAIN that I'm not an attorney, and I believe you're a historian rather than a barrister, so I'm just asking for a common man's understanding of the difference

SRT, not STA. As you correctly surmise, registration by the SRT does not confere any legal protection beyond being about to prove a public date for a particular design. And that only applies to some new tartans designed after 2009 when the Register went live. I say 'some' because there is not requirement to register a design and copyright, so long as it can be proved, will existed irrespective of registration.

But, if you'll permit, I'll pick your historian's cerebrum again about my family's cloth. One of the "red" Robertson tartans listed at the STA seems to have been "invented" by the Sobieski Stewarts, but it bears an uncanny resemblance to the Wilson's of Bannockburn design that is what most people who think about such things call from memory when they think of "Robertson Red."

SRT, not STA. That tartan was designed by the Allen Brothers. I would say it is less like the Robertson and more like some of their other designs such as MacKintosh and Maxwell. As an aside, the final VS design differs from that in the unpublished Lauder Transcript version which gives the stripe on the green as white, not red.

When first I saw cloth of this tartan in 2023 (at Locharron Mill) I was informed that the designers "restricted" it's sale solely to Gordon Nicolson Kiltmaker, and that shop's permission to make products from it to a specific range specified by the designer (in part because the designers, members of the Scottish National Health Service nursing corps, specified that EVERY sale of products made from it would include a donation TO the National Health Service's nursing organization. Of course, that's probably not the same as restrictions included in the design's STA registration (or, at least, that's not what I'm coming to understand).

SRT, not STA. And yes, you are correct, there are no such official restrictions in the registration documentation.

I did manage to communicate with the listed registrant once in 2023, who confirmed for me that agreements existed that it would be woven solely by Lochcarron for sale solely to Nicolson and for use solely in products approved by a committee of the registrants. The latest I've heard is that there is "talk" of production of another run of cloth early next year, but nothing definite.

That is a useful anecdote which I have noted.

[OC Richard]

Peter is this another example of the Allen Brothers taking a then-current tartan, altering it a bit, and putting their version forward as the "genuine" "ancient" sett?

Seems like they got caught in this snare before, like with Gordon, which they evidently didn't know had a documented late-18th century origin.