Scots-Irish

[Moosehead]

So as not to highjack Jeremiah's thread on "being Scottish", I'll ask the same question seperately:

Why do many Americans insist on using the term Scots-Irish? Now, I understand it is meant to describe, for the most part, Ulster Protestants. But, are they not Irish as well? Is it simply a term created by "republicans" in the States to deny the Plantation Irish their rightful place as Ulstermen and Irish?

[djweso]

Well I can't speak to the what you are suggesting but there are two reasons I use it. First my mother's maiden name is McMurray, Murray being a Scottish spelling and Mc being Irish.

The other reason is that there was an article I read sometime ago that talked about the immigrants to the US and the author talked about the fact the becuase both the scotch and irish immigrants were in similar financial situations the ended up living and working together and eventually enter marrying. So alot of the blood got mixed up. Although this wasn't the focus of the article. And no I don't have it anymore unfortunately.

[Moosehead]

Well, ya learn something new every day. Thanks, CajunScot. Did a little google on "ulster Scot" and was quite surprised to find that the vast majority of Plantation families were Lowlanders! And, that they did not speak Gaelic, but Ullans, a Brythonic language close to Germanic.

[Cawdorian]

If you are interested in educating yourself on the Scots-Irish, there is a great book available at Barnes and Noble and some of the other bookstores, The title is "The Scotch Irish" by James Leyburn.

Cajun Scot suggested this book to me some time ago, I bought it, read it and really enjoyed the book. It a great history of the "Ulster Scots" and the Plantations in Northern Ireland. The Ulster Scots lived in Northern Ireland but were actually of Scot's descent.

Cajun Scot can you give the entire title of this book? I am at work and don't have access to my reference bookshelf at the moment.

[Jerry]

I might be wrong, but I have always used thr term Scot Irish tom reflect the fact that my mother's family (Gordons) are Scots, and my father's family (McNeill) are immigrants from County Tyrone, Northern Ireland. Thus, I am Scottish on one side and Irish on the other. Of course, now that I have discovered (Irish American Society), ther Irish part of my family are considered Scots also, Maybe I should call myself "Scot/IrishScot" Overall, I guess I'm just another "mongrel American" with an interesting ancestry (even a little Carolina Indian thrown in)

[Bob C]

I don't think it's a case of trying to deny anybody his Irishness, so much as it is the Scots holding onto their own identity.

My father's family were lowlanders, then Ulster Scots, before coming to North America. My grandfather, though born in Canada, was always fiercely proud of his Scottish roots.

That's why I wear a kilt.

[Moosehead]

Wow, I've given myslef a headache! In further searching, it seems (to me anyway) that there is as much, if not more, "hatred" between Republicans and Unionists in the US as there is in Ulster.

The only agreement seems to be that the Ulstermen (protestants anyway) are not Irish.

I actually did a short tour of duty in NI when I was in the RAF. Unfortunately, considering the circumstances, we were not allowed to venture out into the community.

[macwilkin]

The other reason is that there was an article I read sometime ago that talked about the immigrants to the US and the author talked about the fact the becuase both the scotch and irish immigrants were in similar financial situations the ended up living and working together and eventually enter marrying. So alot of the blood got mixed up. Although this wasn't the focus of the article. And no I don't have it anymore unfortunately.

This has generally been debunked (although many people still believe it) -- the Lowland Scots who settled in Ulster did not intermingle with their Irish neighbours on the grounds of religion. By the time the "famine Irish" arrived in the US, the Scots-Irish and Scots were fairly well established and settled in American society, and had the advantage of being Protestant. Also, after the Revolution, immigration from Scotland slowed, as many Highland Scots instead went to Canada, Australia, New Zealand and South Africa. Indeed, many Highland Scots who favoured the Jacobite cause back home were loyalists in the Revolution.

Duane Meyer's "The Highland Scots of North Carolina", Celeste Ray's "Highland Heritage", James Leyburn's "The Scotch-Irish: a Social History" and James Hunter's "A Dance called America" do a very good job of explaning Scottish and Scots-Irish influences on America and Canada.

Cheers,

Todd

[macwilkin]

My fiancee is part Scot, part Irish, hence Scots-Irish. There are a couple others in there, but they're a small minority. Most Americans are very much interested in where their ancestors came from.

The term Scots-Irish refers to Scots who settled Ulster, Northern Ireland, and then later immigrated to America and in some cases, Canada.

Yes, there folks who are half-Scottish, half-Irish -- but the term "Scots-Irish" really describes a whole other creature, so to speak.

A good general article can be found here:

http://www.ulsterscotssociety.com/about.html

Cheers,

Todd

[M. A. C. Newsome]

Scots-Irish is a very confusing term, but it actually has a real meaning.

First, it does not refer to someone of mixed Scottish and Irish heritage. It is incorrect to use it in this manner.

It does refer to a particular migration pattern, which began in the Lowlands of Scotland in the early seventeenth century, moved to Ulster in northern Ireland, and then during the eighteenth century migrated to North American (largely to Pennsylvania, though to other port areas, as well).

I have an article about the migration here:
http://www.scottishtartans.org/ulster.html

In brief, these were people of Scottish descent who had been living in Ireland for a time prior to their arrival in North America. Think of it as akin to the term Scottish-American (people of Scottish descent living in America). One other thing to keep in mind is that "Scots-Irish" is largely an American term. The people were not called that until their arrival in North America, largely to distinguish them from the Irish Catholics, who arrived in another migration entirely.

Those of Scottish descent who still reside in northern Ireland are usually referred to as "Ulster Scots."

So, unless you can trace your heritage back to the migration of the Ulster Scots to North America, it's not really correct to refer to yourself as "Scots-Irish."

Aye,
Matt