Women and Kilt Wearing

[Space Moose]

I hope again that I'm not coming across as too confrontational. I do respect everybody here, even if I disagree with them completely about any particular thing. I'm merely trying to get at the root of the aversion to women wearing kilts.

It seems to me that the root of the aversion so far has only been stated as 'because it's for men' or 'because they've got something else to be proud of'. Both of which I've shown seem... lacking... when used to explain a similar aversion to other things.

By taking the arguments against one thing and applying them to other topics which we don't have an emotional investment in, we can better see how those arguments stand up as arguments.

Craig

PS: Thanks for enlightening me about the Ohioans (is that the right nomenclature?) at the Alamo. Still the spirit of the analogy is clear. Substitute the word "Ohio" for "Iceland" and the analogy applies very well when talking about that particular argument.

[Colin]

Maybe because it's not as traditional. We go back and forth on this forum for hours about the difference of a centimeter in kilt lenght, the slight upturning of a first pleat, the type of leather in a strap (but not chain!). We obsess about pleating, fabric weight, even the origin of the fabric. Belt width (in or out of the loops), what type of jacket, shirts, hose, flashes, shoes. We on this forum are positively looney about achieving the impossible: what is "the right way", meaning what is most traditional.

Valid points Space Moose. However women wearing kilts is also not traditional, as you point out as an excuse for them not wearing a kilted skirt

Now you'll ask why somebody doesn't just wear a knock-off? Do you at least see why a woman would want to take the same pride and care in wearing it?

I started out wear a non traditional kilt due to lack of funds. If someone wants to wear a non traditioal kilt because that is what they can afford, great...go for it. I am willing to bet that as time goes on they are going to want to a traditional wool kilt. I have no issue with women wearing some of the new style comtemporary kilts (heck I think women look better in UKs than guys do). It is the traditional Scottish kilt that I am discussing.

I think the opponents break down into two categories (though some may be masquerading in one, but belong in the other):

1: People who think women don't look as attractive in a kilt.

Fair enough, that's your personal taste. I happen to think this is a gross generalization, but personal tastes are suppposed to be different.


2: People who think women shoudn't wear a kilt because "they're for men".

I already talked about this theory, but it does seem to me that those in this camp are a little insecure about their own wearing of a kilt. Meaning that if women started wearing kilts, then when you wear a kilt, it won't be as acceptable, people might think you're crossdressing.I find this notion a little funny

1) Why deny women that same pride that we get from wearing a true kilt?

2) How could your great pride and confidence in wearing a kilt be affected in any way by women wearing kilts?

No insecurity here mate, I just am not sure why women need to take away from men when there are very similar options already there for them. The comparison to women wearing pants is bound to be made, but it is a different subject all together. It's not as if women have been told you can't wear skirts at all. It is simply one form of skirt we are discussing, and there are numerous alternatives to women that will allow them to celebrate their heritage in a well made garment. Besides I have yet to see a woman look good in a man's kilt, too bulky for a female frame.

By the way, I'd like to add that nobody except on this forum knows the difference between a womans kilt-skirt pleated the other way, and a man's kilt. To the general populace, the alternatives that women 'should wear' are identical to what we're wearing.

I don't think is true. i have attended numerous functions around the city and the country and a lot of people can usually pick out the true kilts from the skirts going the wrong way. Most people with Scottish heritage know a kilt to see it.

We all seem to focus on the past mistakes of our forefathers in terms of denying women the right to vote, wear pants, join this organization, etc. But let's not forget that that is a double standard that is equally directed at men. I would be hard pressed to find anything these days that is men only, where as I can drive for 15 minutes and find 2-3 "women's only gyms. In fact there are 4 in my area.

So is the "they are men's" attitude seem a bit childish and out dated. Sure it does, but why should the mistakes of the people before us cause such political correctness that we don't have the balls to stand up and try and keep something for men only. Gawd we might insult somebody ;-)

No confirintion taken, we all have different opions, that's what makes this forum good.

[Jeremiah]

Why would a woman who is proud of the tradition of the kilt dilute that very tradition by wearing one? I don't appreciate the less than subtle accusations of chauvinism in this thread, by the way.

[Moosehead]

By taking the arguments against one thing and applying them to other topics which we don't have an emotional investment in, we can better see how those arguments stand up as arguments.

Ahh, but then that would be comparing apples to oranges.

[Space Moose]

I just am not sure why women need to take away from men when there are very similar options already there for them

I guess the people on the other side just don't see how it is possible that anybody doing anything can take away from us wearing our Kilts.

So is the "they are men's" attitude seem a bit childish and out dated. Sure it does, but why should the mistakes of the people before us cause such political correctness that we don't have the balls to stand up and try and keep something for men only.

Again, I guess some desire or see the need for things that are "XXX only" (where XXX is gender/culture/nationality/etc), while others don't.

Why would a woman who is proud of the tradition of the kilt dilute that very tradition by wearing one?

I don't see the difference between the effect that a woman has on the tradition of a kilt and the effect that the following have on the tradition of a kilt:

Spanish people wearing kilts.
People wearing modern kilts.
People wearing traditional kilts with tshirts that read "Lipstick".
etc...

Personally, I don't think any of those, nor women wearing a kilt, dilutes the tradition of a kilt.

I don't appreciate the less than subtle accusations of chauvinism in this thread, by the way.

Not trying to be subtle, my first post used the term "mild chauvinism". I don't really want to debate the definition of the term, but I will say sorry for offending. I'm just trying to better understand the counter-viewpoint.

Craig

[Casey]

I must admit that, after reading allllllll these posts, I find that I share Blu and Ron's points of view.

Many things have been feminized in recent times. So I would say, put on your kilt! Grow your beard! Grow your hair!

And , let the women wear what they want. Cause they look good in just about anything.

[Colin]

The main difference between women wearing a kilt and people of another nationality wear a kilt is that women already have an viable alternative to the traditional male kilt, where as a Spanish, Italian, African American, etc man likely does not have a kilt option other than a kilt. Options for people without clan affiliations have been created in the universal tartans, national tartans, etc. To get technical, a lot of Spain has as much if not more Celtic heritage as the British Isles, so a Spanish person is completely within their "heritage" to wear a kilt.

[Ruanaidh]

Speaking of the Alamo, I'm on my way there now so I won't be around for the weekend. (Just so no one thinks I'm abandoning the thread I started.)

Shay, this thread doesn't show any signs of disappearing anytime soon. You'll have a lot of catching up to do when you get back. Make sure to wear your kilt and enjoy San Antonio.

[cavscout]

I've never actually considered the whole topic, so won't comment directly. However,Is it not possible for a woman to be proud of wearing traditional women's clothing(Scots, Irish, whatever), instead of having to wear men's? Or, in this PC-gone-nuts world of ours, is it simply un-PC for men to have something which is ours alone?

Well said Moosehead. That is perfect.

There is a line from a movie in the 80's paraphrased to, "The great women in our societies have become great because they are women, not inspite of being a woman."

I don't see me showing pride in my mother's family heritage by slipping on a frilly blouse. I'll dress as a man. Women who dress as a man are doing so because they want to and by doing so they strip the vallue of the tradition from the garment. It has nothing to do with self confidence on my part.

The above statement is not to say the ladies intent is to strip the value :grin:

[Space Moose]

I've been hearing a lot of things from men (myself included) that suppose the reason why a woman would wear a kilt.

I'd suggest that none of these reasons would apply to all. Some I suppose would wear a kilt to take something away from a man wearing a kilt, others would wear it because they really like kilts.

I think that the crux of the issue is that, whatever the woman's reason for doing so, it seems some people believe that it does take some of the tradition away from wearing a kilt, while others do not.

I'm of the belief that my pride, honour, and respect a kilt can't be diluted by anything.

To me, I feel that none of the below can 'take away' from the pride or tradition of a kilt in any way (others would disagree on one or more):

a woman wearing a kilt
a rastafarian man in a viking hat wearing a kilt
a person in a "Lipstick" t-shirt wearing a kilt
a fool yelling "nice skirt" at me while I'm wearing a kilt
a man wearing a modern variant of a kilt
a man with white hose wearing a kilt *shudder*

Most of us are experts at holding our heads high and knowing that what matters is our own pride in wearing the kilt, and the way we respect the tradition of wearing a kilt. I suppose I just don't see a difference in how some external influences can't affect my internal pride, honour and respect for the tradition of a kilt, while other external influences can affect that pride, honour, and respect.

Craig