Women and Kilt Wearing

[Space Moose]

And please if anybody could answer these questions...

I'm still very curious how the tradition of a kilt can be diluted at all.

Assuming it can, I'm more curious how the following do not dilute the tradition of the kilt, while there are other things that do:

Men wearing modern kilts.
Men wearing traditional kilts with a shirt that says "Lipstick".
Women wearing traditional kilts while piping or dancing.
Men wearing kilts low on thier waist, instead of near their navel.

It seems to me that all 4 of these diverge rather significantly from the old days and ways that I'm assuming people think of as the "tradition of the kilt".

Please, I call on any to enlighten.

Craig

[Space Moose]

Tracking with Bubba's post above:

I would not have a problem with that reason IF the female would hold herself accountable to qualify to those who may inquire that she is wearing a mans garment and not a womens kilted skirt. For her to honor the distinction would be a huge demonstration of her respect for the tradition.

Ah ha! This may be a breakthrough.

So, you have no problem if the woman says she's wearing a man's kilt ("man's kilt" is a little redudntant, but I'd concede that some don't know that) when asked.

Logically it follows from that statement that you only have a problem if a woman wears a man's kilt and calls it a skirt?

Therefore if a woman is walking down the street in a kilt, you'd have no problem with it, unless you knew she considered it a skirt. So if you don't get a chance to ask, you don't know, and therefore are ok with it? I'd presume you would err on the side that she knows and would call it a kilt, because as was mentioned kilts are so much more expensive, and for the very most part, you really have to know about a kilt, before you dish out the money to get one.

I think from your post the above would be true. Unless you mis-stated yourself.

It appears that the crux of the problem, at least for you, is with women (presumeably men too) calling the kilt a skirt. I'd say fair enough. There's nothing chauvanistic about that.

Craig

[Colin]

Men wearing modern kilts.

Depends what you mean. If you mean UKs, I am with you on that one, as I don't care for them. However, as it has been pointed out on this forum numerous times, the Utilikilt, Freedomkilt, Amerikilt, etc are more American (meaning North American) style kilts. Uk has stated that their kilts were not meant to be seen as Scottish kilts. There is no tradition to these styles of kilts and I don't think anyone has an issue with women wearing these styles. It is the traditional Scottish kilt that is being discussed.

Men wearing traditional kilts with a shirt that says "Lipstick".

That is a matter of taste. You don't like the lipstick shirts, and I think they are gimmicky. However they are no different than a Guinness shirt, a rugby shirt, a golf shirt, or a sports team shirt. It's a matter of personal taste and style. While I don't really care for the "Scottish drinking team" shirts, I prefer to see someone wearing them to the new "highlander, Jacobite, or Culloden" style shirts, which to me look very costume oriented. Kilts were not always formal wear for men, and casual wear is still prevelant.

Women wearing traditional kilts while piping or dancing..

Easy one, that's a uniform. Like a police, military, etc uniform people that are expected to wear uniforms usually show the respect for it. In terms of dancing, yes it is relatively new for dancer's to wear the same kilts as men, but as part of their costume, I think most people just assume it is a real kilt. I think people have less of an issue with dancers, as the dancing tartans are not something you would usually see worn by men.

Men wearing kilts low on thier waist, instead of near their navel..

So in other words all these kilt firms in Scotland selling casual kilts (5 yarders) are also in the wrong? These kilts are just that, casual (not for formal). Alot of people in North America would not even think twice about wearing a kilt lower down, given the trend of pants these day. I really feel that these casual kilts are a good alternative to people wanting to get into the kilt wearing world, but with out the huge finacial commitment. As I stated before, I think alot of these people will eventually go to the traditional kilt.

Craig,

I think you will find that alot of us guys that have been around here for awhile, or any of the newer guys that made the mistake of going to Tom's cafe in recent years, will try to defend the kilt as a male garment. We have listened to other men try and explian the whole "but it's a man wearing the skating dress, so it's a man's garment" theory numerous times. When you have people telling you that a kilt only means a pleated skirt, any skirt worn by a man, or any dress worn by a man, you too will take a more traditional approach to a man's kilt.

I have been to numerous local kilts nights wear a female friend will show up wearing a tartan skirt from the gap and tell me it is a kilt, to know that most women don't know the meaning of what a traditional kilt is. To the few that want to wear a man's kilt.....what can any of us do? However Shay asked for opinions, and that is what she got. I don't see the point of trying to argue people's opinions, as few are likely to switch schools of thought based on your arguements here. This does not mean that those of us with a different opinion are chauvinists (cause you don't have a clue who I am what I what I stand for or what work I have done for feminist casues). What it means is that some of us buy into PC ***** more than others.

I am glad that you can voice your opinion well, and I certainly mean no disrespect to your opinion. Just voicing my own.

[Space Moose]

Colin, I think you missed the meaning of my post entirely.

I don't think those things are in any way wrong (I happen to think the "Lipstick" shirt is hilarious).

I'm asking how, those things do not take away from the tradition of the kilt, but when a woman wears it, that does.

Each of those is quite arguably non-traditional. But I'd say none of them 'takes away from the tradition of wearing a kilt'. As I've mentioned I don't think anything can, including when a woman wears it.

I was soliciting a reason that can be used to explain why a woman wearing a kilt 'takes away', but that cannot be used to explain why one or all of those things also 'takes away' from the kilt.

Craig

PS: Colin I also think you're reading more into my posts than is written. Nowhere am I suggesting somebody's opinion is wrong. Nowhere am I trying to convert somebody. I'm consistently trying to clarify the meaning, so that I can better understand it (and by discussion we can all better understand it). Further, I haven't suggested anybody is a chauvinist, merely I've suggested that some arguments are chauvinistic (based on my knowledge of the definition of the word). There's a difference.

[Colin]

Colin, I think you missed the meaning of my post entirely.

I don't think those things are in any way wrong (I happen to think the "Lipstick" shirt is hilarious).

I'm asking how, those things do not take away from the tradition of the kilt, but when a woman wears it, that does.

Each of those is quite arguably non-traditional. But I'd say none of them 'takes away from the tradition of wearing a kilt'. As I've mentioned I don't think anything can, including when a woman wears it.

I was soliciting a reason that can be used to explain why a woman wearing a kilt 'takes away', but that cannot be used to explain why one or all of those things also 'takes away' from the kilt.

Craig

PS: Colin I also think you're reading more into my posts than is written. Nowhere am I suggesting somebody's opinion is wrong. Nowhere am I trying to convert somebody. I'm consistently trying to clarify the meaning, so that I can better understand it (and by discussion we can all better understand it). Further, I haven't suggested anybody is a chauvinist, merely I've suggested that some arguments are chauvinistic (based on my knowledge of the definition of the word). There's a difference.

Fair enough, mate. In terms of tradition, I think the main issue here is that the only tradition still carried on with the kilt is that it is for men. The style of kilt has changed, the tartans are all relatively new (a few hundred years for some), the Irish and the Welsh now have a good claim to them, Tartans are designed for family, clan, corporate, country, etc., new styles have come out, etc, etc, etc.

If we give up the tradition of kilt's being a male garment, like we do most things, we allow more of the traditioanl aspects of the kilt to disappear (IMHO). That's some of my reasoning at least.

I don't think a woman wearing a kilt takes away my pride in the garment, I am just kind of sick of the double standard in society these days. It's almost a reluctance to let men have anything for themselves as a gender.

[Rigged]

However, as it has been pointed out on this forum numerous times, the Utilikilt, Freedomkilt, Amerikilt, etc are more American (meaning North American) style kilts. Uk has stated that their kilts were not meant to be seen as Scottish kilts. There is no tradition to these styles of kilts and I don't think anyone has an issue with women wearing these styles.

I think many of us do have a problem with it. We want these modern versions of kilts to be recognized as men's clothing so that we can wear them on the street or to work, or around family members without being thought of as cross-dressing.

[KiltedKnight]

Craig,

I have gone over my post to try and understand what it is that you cannot understand, you question the obvious and there is nothing more that I can explain that isn't already there. If you cannot find the answers to what it is that is in my post there isn't much that I can do by going over it with you. Your claim that you are only being inquisitive doesn't jive in the light of this. You seem more pugilistic than inquisitive. I stated that if my post hurt anyones feel bads then that's the way it is and there's nothing anyone can do to change my convictions to their liking. I will not change my views to keep you from any tantrum.
I live my life to suit me and not the bed wetter down the street. There have always been girly-men that didn't agree with that from the hippies to whatever they call themselves today. I don't interfere with their life and I won't allow them to interfere with mine. If you want someone to share your points of view there are many at Toms Cafe.

Chris. :razz:

[cavscout]

Well said Chris. You were much more dignified than I could find the words for.

[Pleater]

OK chaps, as this is really so important to get right - if I cease and desist from making anticlockwise kilts - for one at least - which side does the belt buckle go?

I am losing weight, and inches, so do not put permanent fasteners on the waist, but have an assortment of good leather belts. I put a belt loop at the last small pleat each side, two at the back, and one close to the edge of the upper apron.

I usually thread all my belts so the buckle is on the left end.

Should I reverse this too, so I will not be attacked in the street by outraged fundakiltalists? ;-)

[Tim Walker]

I have to wonder...if some women want to wear kilts because their skirts are impractical?

The Bravehearts kilt forum has an analysis-womens' clothing has been designed to show off womens' bodies/sexuality, rather than for comfort or practicality. I also recall a post to that web site regarding women who like the pockets of the Utilikilt.