My new Blackwatch

[M. A. C. Newsome]

A few points:

Rampant Lion, what the Scottish Tartans Authority shows as "Grant Hunting" (No. 311 in the ITI) is indeed a Grant Hunting tartan. No, it is not the usual Grant Hunting tartan, which is the same as the Black Watch. However, it is a Grant Hunting tartan. It comes from the Key Pattern Book of tartan weaving firm Wilsons of Bannockburn, c. 1819. Remember that the International Tartan Index contains pretty much all known tartans, historic and modern. It is going to have more than just what is commonly seen today, including older tartans like this one.

For what it is worth, The House of Edgar still produces this version of Grant Hunting as part of their "Old & Rare" range, in medium weight cloth. You can see it in kilt form in my gallery here:
http://kilts.albanach.org/grant_htg_kilt.jpg

That being said, the usual Grant Hunting tartan is indeed the Black Watch (as is the Munro Hunting tartan, and the Campbell Clan tartan, as well as the Sutherland District tartan).

Now, if Splash4's kilt is indeed the same pattern as that shown on the Stillwater web site, then it is not the actual Black Watch tartan. It is, as has been pointed out, only half of the usual Black Watch sett. This is commonly seen in fashion cloth. I have a pair of pajama pants in this pattern, as a matter of fact.

Among the variations of the Black Watch tartan recorded in the ITI, I find some that meet this pattern, all of which are fashion tartans mostly woven by Pendleton Woolen Mill in Oregon. There is an historic tartan with this pattern, woven by Wilson of Bannockburn (and recorded in the same 1819 pattern book mentioned above) under the name "Sutherland."

I'm not really surprised that the Stillwater kilt doesn't use the true Black Watch pattern, given the fact that the cloth for these kilts is not being woven specifically for the Scottish Highland Dress industry (these are Pakistani made kilts). I wonder how many people have bought these kilts and not noticed!

A final note: the reason why there are so many Black Watch variants recorded by the STA is both because the tartan has a long history and has gone through different forms (see 1563), and because the tartan is so popular in the fashion world that variations have been created (see 3698 or 3077).

Aye,
Matt

[Splash_4]

Thank you for that info Matt. The things you learn here! So, I guess I'll just refer to this as a fashion tartan! Either way, I like the colors.

[Monkey@Arms]

Well there you go. All those who express objections to wearing Black Watch (or Grant Hunting, or Munro Hunting, or Campbell, or Sutherland District) can go ahead and buy this kilt with a clear conscience.

Best regards,

Jake

[cacunn]

For the uneducated and in a manner that does not upset the moderator what is the political problem with the Black Watch?

[Panache]

For the uneducated and in a manner that does not upset the moderator what is the political problem with the Black Watch?

Chris,

There are some who do not like the tartan because of the association that Scottish regiment had with the British Crown. It and the Royal Stewart tartan are also overly used in the United Kingdom to represent Scotland, and because they have been so heavily commercialized for a variety of products and kilt rentals they aren't seen as special. Still others simply don't like the tartans themselves. I believe that covers everything and there is little need to go further than that.

Hope this answered your question

Cheers

Panache

[Bob C]

Chris,

There are some who do not like the tartan because of the association that Scottish regiment had with the British Crown. It and the Royal Stewart tartan are also overly used in the United Kingdom to represent Scotland, and because they have been so heavily commercialized for a variety of products and kilt rentals they aren't seen as special. Still others simply don't like the tartans themselves. I believe that covers everything and there is little need to go further than that.

Hope this answered your question

Cheers

Panache

Some MacDonalds still associate it with the Campbells who conducted the massacre at Glencoe.

[Panache]

Some MacDonalds still associate it with the Campbells who conducted the massacre at Glencoe.

I stand corrected. Thanks Bob!

Cheers

Panache

[Bob C]

I stand corrected. Thanks Bob!

Cheers

Panache

Not at all, Jamie. You weren't wrong - just incomplete. There are some, like me, who won't wear it because of some of the actions of the regiment, just as you said.

[macwilkin]

Some MacDonalds still associate it with the Campbells who conducted the massacre at Glencoe.

...Except the Campbells as a clan had nothing to do with Glencoe. A Campbell, Robert Campbell of Glenlyon reluctantly carried out the orders of John John Dalrymple, the Earl of Stair and William III to make an example of the Glencoe MacDonalds and their Chief, MacIan. Glenlyon was actually a distant relative of MacIan and had to be threatened by Stair into carrying out the orders, and several of his officers balked as well.

What is also forgotten is that the MacDonald's raided Glenlyon's estate months before Glencoe, and were essentially guilty of the same thing that he was, and that a Campbell sheriff did vouch for MacIan who was late in signing a loyalty oath to William.

And just a point of clarification: the Independent Highland Companies, which became "The Black Watch" or The Royal Highland Regiment, were not raised until 1725 as a police force for the Highlands. They were then deployed to the Battlefields of Europe, where they made a name for themselves at the Battle of Fontenoy in 1745.

Regards,

Todd

[Bob C]

You're right, as always, Todd. There are many who deal in generalities and lack your knowledge of detail, though.

This place is great. So many opportunities to learn.