My new Blackwatch

[Cawdorian]

The recognized tartan of clan Campbell is the Ancient Campbell pattern shown above not the modern pattern of the Black Watch tartan.

We Lamonts had the Campbells as our neighbors for several centurys, we had to add the white line to differentiate ourselves from our neighbors to the north. Tartans are based on the colors of the dyes available in that particular region of the country.

The Campbells and Lamonts are very closely connected throughout the history of both clans, it was very common for the Lamonts to marry Campbells. The Campbells and the Lamonts have cooperated through the years on many projects and issues of mutual interest. The Campbells have very generously supplied the Lamonts with access to their clan records through the years. Both clans were very particular about documenting their events and agreements in writing and have supplied a huge amount of documented Scottish history over the years.

The Lamont massacre by the Campbells was far worse that the Glencoe situation, over 300 Lamonts and their kin were slain or hung by the Campbells. But these events happened a few hundred years ago and are just part of the history of the clans.

My heritage is the result of a Lamont Campbell marriage a few hundred years ago. I have co-existed very happily in a blended Campbell MacDonald household for over 28 years. These stories and ancient grudges need to remain in our past.

[macwilkin]

I guess I don't quite get the animosity towards the actual Black Watch regiment that some have expressed here. This is a listing of their service in various campaigns down through the centuries:

http://www.journal74.fsnet.co.uk/bwatch42.htm

Other than opposing us rebels in the American War of Independence, it looks to me like the Black Watch has spent the majority of its existence fighting Frenchmen - and later on, Germans. I don't see that they were ever stationed in Ireland.

Personally, I think the regiment is one of the great formations in military history and I'd proudly wear their tartan. And I have! My very first kilt was a Black Watch 8 yd. tank from Lochcarron....

Aye, Brian -- and to further your point about the Revolution:

The Regimental history of the Black Watch states:

We can boast no Battle Honours for our part in the American War of Independence, because it was rightfully decreed that Battle Honours should not be granted for a war between our kith and kin.

Cheers,

Todd

[M. A. C. Newsome]

The recognized tartan of clan Campbell is the Ancient Campbell pattern shown above not the modern pattern of the Black Watch tartan.

Actually, Jim, if you'll allow a minor correction to your above statement; those two tartans are really one and the same. There are, I beleive, four tartans that are recognized by the Campbell Clan.

The Campbell tartan (same as Black Watch)
Campbell of Cawdor
Campbell of Breadalbane
Campbell of Louden

There are other Campbell tartans one will occasionally run into. For instance, there is a Campbell of Glenlyon, and a Cambpell of Lochawe. I don't have my Campbell tartan book here at home, and I cannot remember for the moment if these are officially recognized by the clan, but I don't think that they are. There are some that I know are not recognized, such as the Red Campbell tartan, and the ubiquitous Campbell of Argyle and Dress Campbell tartans. (Although if I were a Campbell I might be tempted to wear the Red Campbell just to be different, so people could spot me at clan gatherings among the sea of blue/green tartans!). :-)

But to the point, the basic Clan Campbell tartan is the same as the Black Watch, and no color qualifications are needed. I know a lot of people are under the impression that the Campbell Clan tartan should be woven in the lighter "ancient" colors, and the Black Watch is woven in the darker "modern" colors, but this is not true. What is true, I beleive, is that the current Duke of Argyle prefers the lighter ancient shades, which is why many no doubt have made the claim that this is the only official Campbell tartan. But just because the cheif prefers the ancient colors doesn't mean you can't wear the modern or weathered colors.

In fact, prior to the last half of the twentieth century, when "ancient" colors were created and made popular, all you had was the Campbell (Black Watch) tartan, in the standard dark colors, same as that worn by the 42nd Regiment. This is what Campbells wore.

Remember, what color scheme the tartan is woven in does not change the tartan itself. You are creating an unneccesary distinction. And also remember that the particular colors will vary from mill to mill. The Clan Campbell Society of North America says this about the Campbell/Black Watch tartan on their web site: "The shades or tones of the colors may vary from different weavers but the choice of these is a matter for your taste."

Aye,
Matt

[Bob C]

I don't see that they were ever stationed in Ireland.

They certainly were in Northern Ireland in the 1970s.

[macwilkin]

They certainly were in Northern Ireland in the 1970s.

Let's not open that can of worms, please.

Cheers,

Todd

[Cawdorian]

I was comparing the Ancient Campbell tartan to the Black Watch. The Duke of Argyle does prefer the Ancient Campbell tartan. This tartan, Campbell of Cawdor, Campbell of Loudon and Campbell of Breadalbane are the four tartans recognized by the Duke.

[M. A. C. Newsome]

Jim,

Right, I was just expanding a bit on your statement. The main point here, however, is that while the cheif prefers the ancient hues, the tartan itself is identical to the Black Watch, in terms of thread count and colors. Only the specific hues are lighter in the ancient version.

So it would be correct to say the the Campbell tartan and the Black Watch tartan, in general, are one and the same. The ancient Campbell is the same as the ancient Black Watch; the modern Cambpell is the same as the modern Black Watch; the weathered Campbell is the same as the weathered Black Watch.

The regiment, of course, always wears the dark colors, which we call "modern." Us civilians, of course, are free to wear whatever color hues we like.

M

[Riverkilt]

Jeez Matt,

Now I know of the Red Campbell....I could wear that and tell my grandfather Murdoch Macdonald that it represented a blood covered Campbell, he'd like that.

Tell you what, I'm amazed by his eternal hatred of anything Campbell that was instilled in him by his father Archibald Macdonald and his grandfather John Macdonald who came to Nova Scotia from Skye in the 1850s.

I remember how upset Murdoch was when I worked for Campbell Ford in Kingsport, TN in 1970. And no, he wouldn't buy Campbell's Soup - ever.

Its really great to get the history and endeavor to sort out how an intelligent aware adult could come to have such harsh feelings for perceived events so long ago.

Maybe I can give my grandson Scott a better education than Murdoch gave me.

Ron

[Raphael]

, and nice strong accessories in the only leather colour one can wear with this tartan - black. .

I didn't know that

[MrLion]

Jeez Matt,

Now I know of the Red Campbell....I could wear that and tell my grandfather Murdoch Macdonald that it represented a blood covered Campbell, he'd like that.

Tell you what, I'm amazed by his eternal hatred of anything Campbell that was instilled in him by his father Archibald Macdonald and his grandfather John Macdonald who came to Nova Scotia from Skye in the 1850s.

I remember how upset Murdoch was when I worked for Campbell Ford in Kingsport, TN in 1970. And no, he wouldn't buy Campbell's Soup - ever.

Its really great to get the history and endeavor to sort out how an intelligent aware adult could come to have such harsh feelings for perceived events so long ago.

Maybe I can give my grandson Scott a better education than Murdoch gave me.

Ron

The "grandfather" I knew on my Mom's side was actually my Great-Uncle-in-Law, and was a Campbell. He never ever talked about clan things. He was the kindest gentleman I ever met and I miss his deep brogue. His favorite cereal was "the wee roond ones" (Cherrios). I have learned about the Campbell controversies only in the past year or so. I look forward to getting a Campbell kilt one day to honor my "grampa".
Ron, I appreciate you. Thanks.