Allowed tartans

[MacWage]

Consider this .

""The Black Watch - The Clan Grant Hunting Tartan
The "Black Watch" sett in the Ancient Colors is known as the Grant Hunting tartan. This is the Hunting Tartan recommended for Clan Grant by our Chief. "Hunting" tartans supposedly developed as alternate tartan setts for the clans, with darker colors, and worn while "hunting" because it acted as a better camouflage outdoors (the belief being that the standard or "dress" tartan setts, with brighter colors, would scare off their quary).

Origin of ALL "hunting" tartans: darker tartan, often based on the "normal" one. Usually it is a case of color replacement in the same sett. Sometimes it is a WHOLE different tartan. The WHOLE "hunting" and "dress" tartan things strikes me as a case of "why not us too"-ism. The earliest "hunting" tartan seems to have been "Hunting MacLeod," AKA MacLeod of Harris (which may have been adopted simply as a more subtle tartan than "Loud MacLeod" (since named Dress MacLeod or MacLeod of Lewis). Others seem to have thought: "If the MacLeod's can have 2 tartans, WHY can't WE?" So, others took up "hunting tartans" using Alternatively, some clans, usually those using darker toned tartans, did the reverse and adopted "dress" tartans. Many of these were the regular sett, but with large amounts of WHITE added (see Dress Gordon).
The above argument is what most clans claimed when adopting hunting tartans.

The Black Watch tartan is the Grant "Hunting" tartan due to our clan's long association with this regiment.

THE REASON it was adopted! It was adopted FROM the regiment, BECAUSE of associations.

The original Black Watch regiments enlisted men from Clan Grant, and it is said that this tartan was originally a Grant tartan before being adopted as the official tartan of the regiment.

I didn't notice THIS section when I agreed with this post originally.

THAT I STRONGLY DISAGREE WITH!!!!!

There are many clans, such as the Campbells, whose standard tartan is identical to the Grant hunting tartan, or other clans, who have a variation of the Black Watch tartan (typically with lighter colors, an extra stripe, or a light stripe somewhere in the sett, etc), whose clan members were part of the original Black Watch Regiment and adopted the Black Watch tartan or a variation of it as their own. The Black Watch tartan in the modern colors is currently one of the most recognized tartans in the world, and is one of a handful that are considered by many to be a "national" tartan for Scotland. ""

http://www.clangrant-us.org/tartans.htm

Not much to argue with here. It basically says: 1) Other clans use Black Watch or Black Watch based tartans as their clan tartans too. 2) Black Watch is VERY recognizable.
Both of those statements are VERY true.

The shading is ONLY significant in allowing the differences in colors between the black and navy (in particular) and the green. Thompson recommends "ancient" colors for THAT reason. The toning itself means NOTHING in the identity of the tartan, as ALL can have modern, ancient, weathered (really "blued" or "browned"), etc.

(more clarity on my earlier post, esp. after reading the quoted post again more carefully.

[Quaich Maker]

Ian,

Please do not get upset. I am quite aware that William Cumming was the hereditary piper to the Grant Chief. Did you notice my at the end of the post?

This article by Hugh Cheape discusses the painting in more detail:

http://tahoebagpiper.com/piper.pdf

I'd love to see what sources you have, as I would like to write an article about William Cumming for the Clan Cumming Society's newsletter.

Regards,

Todd

Todd , I am well aware of the article by Hugh Cheape .
You will note that William Cumming was one of a family of pipers , spanning at least 7 generations over more that 150 years .
They were Grants by by clan and , at least from the time of Williams children , by ancestry also . Were they also Cummings by clan ? Well , if they were , they would have had to have sworn allegiance to two Clans , and two chiefs .
Not an easy thing to do at any time .

Scary as it may seem , there are out there in the world , Cummings who are Grants , not Cummings clan members .


Of note in this paper of Hugh Cheape's , is reference to The Grant of that time , speaking in terms of a clan sett and its colours .
The paintings also make that abundantly clear.
Something that seems to pass unnoticed before the eyes many so called tartan experts , and many those who do have of pointed out to then have a habit of explaining it away to nothing .

Todd ,
this paper by Cheape should have enough for a wee article in you news letter , tho it may not be the clan connection you had hoped for .
Further information may be available from our scholars and historians , or not , considering the works , as yet unpublished , underway .

Stand Fast

yours aye ,
Ian Patrick Grant

[macwilkin]

Todd , I am well aware of the article by Hugh Cheape .
You will note that William Cumming was one of a family of pipers , spanning at least 7 generations over more that 150 years .
They were Grants by by clan and , at least from the time of Williams children , by ancestry also . Were they also Cummings by clan ? Well , if they were , they would have had to have sworn allegiance to two Clans , and two chiefs .
Not an easy thing to do at any time .

Scary as it may seem , there are out there in the world , Cummings who are Grants , not Cummings clan members .


Of note in this paper of Hugh Cheape's , is reference to The Grant of that time , speaking in terms of a clan sett and its colours .
The paintings also make that abundantly clear.
Something that seems to pass unnoticed before the eyes many so called tartan experts , and many those who do have of pointed out to then have a habit of explaining it away to nothing .

Todd ,
this paper by Cheape should have enough for a wee article in you news letter , tho it may not be the clan connection you had hoped for .
Further information may be available from our scholars and historians , or not , considering the works , as yet unpublished , underway .

Stand Fast

yours aye ,
Ian Patrick Grant

Ian,

It's enough of a connection in the fact that they bear the surname Cumming, whilst being employed as pipers to the Grants. I use it as a frequent illustration in talks, etc. about how surnames in terms of clan affiliation are sometimes misleading, as you mentioned. Nothing scary about that at all.

The Cummings were somewhat of a "broken" clan at that time anyway, given the fact that the Altyre branch were really the only ones left after Bruce's pogrom against the Buchan and Badenoch Comyns in 1308. It's only natural that they would seek alliances with larger clans like the Grants & the Gordons -- as recent as 2003, our current Chief's father bore the surname of "Gordon-Cumming".

Regards,

Todd

[Peter C.]

I understood that the government banned the wearing of kilts before clan tartans came into being, and rescinded the law so that the new regiments could wear kilts as part of their uniform in order to improve recruitment figures. This would indicate that regimental tartans came first.

This is a bit like the chicken and egg argument, except it is:-"It was my tartan before it was your tartan!"

Scottish history is so full of myth and legend, it is often difficult to pin down the facts, and most of us haven't studied the subject broadly enough to be authorities. I would tend to go along with Matt N as he seems to be the most knowledgable guy on xmarks and does produce logical argument and as many facts as possible to get to the truth, without an agenda of his own.

So many people dogmatically argue the facts the way they would like them to be rather than looking at all available evidence and accepting things the way they are.

Peter

[Quaich Maker]

Ian,

It's enough of a connection in the fact that they bear the surname Cumming, whilst being employed as pipers to the Grants. I use it as a frequent illustration in talks, etc. about how surnames in terms of clan affiliation are sometimes misleading, as you mentioned. Nothing scary about that at all.

The Cummings were somewhat of a "broken" clan at that time anyway, given the fact that the Altyre branch were really the only ones left after Bruce's pogrom against the Buchan and Badenoch Comyns in 1308. It's only natural that they would seek alliances with larger clans like the Grants & the Gordons -- as recent as 2003, our current Chief's father bore the surname of "Gordon-Cumming".

Regards,

Todd

Todd,
Aye , the hyphen huh . where does that come from
Our late chief , who was a Kiwi as I am , was born Ogilvie-Grant .
Upon his matriculation , he handed the Ogilvie titles back to his cousin .
Unfortunately , the clans lands etc , were by english law the property of another party , and had been for nearly a century.
Hence we are landless , apart from a church , and its yard.

Todd , I must say , it is a pleasure to chat with a member who does not insult my be referring to me as a 'new kid on the block ' or some such , and thus dismissing my input.
Nearly 50 years of study is hardly 'new' huh

Ian

[Quaich Maker]

I understood that the government banned the wearing of kilts before clan tartans came into being, and rescinded the law so that the new regiments could wear kilts as part of their uniform in order to improve recruitment figures. This would indicate that regimental tartans came first.

This is a bit like the chicken and egg argument, except it is:-"It was my tartan before it was your tartan!"

Scottish history is so full of myth and legend, it is often difficult to pin down the facts, and most of us haven't studied the subject broadly enough to be authorities. I would tend to go along with Matt N as he seems to be the most knowledgable guy on xmarks and does produce logical argument and as many facts as possible to get to the truth, without an agenda of his own.

So many people dogmatically argue the facts the way they would like them to be rather than looking at all available evidence and accepting things the way they are.

Peter

Quite so Peter ,
evidence such as this

'' Clearly the periodic muster of fencible men stiffened loyalty and dependency in a period
when both were frequently tested in the Highlands. Entries for 1704 in the Regality Court Books
of the Laird of Grant record the calling out, on 48 hours' notice, of the 'fencible men' of Badenoch
and Strathspey for the Laird's 'hosting or hunteing'; each man was to be dressed in 'Heighland
coates, trewes, and short hoes of tartane of red and greine sett broad springed and also with gun,
sword, pistoll and durk ... And the Master to outrig the servantes in the saids coates, trewes, and
hose out of there fies' .''

Stewart 1893, 27-8

and this

'' A sense of kinship and identity must have been strengthened when Ludovick Grant of
Freuchie made a settlement of his estates on his eldest son, Colonel Alexander Grant of Grant, in
1710; at a formal and elaborate ceremony the old laird resigned the leadership of the clan to his
heir. This selection of the heir to the estate before the witness of the clan is reminiscent of the
'tanistry' of the early Irish law tracts by which the successor designate or heir presumptive, an
tanaiste, was chosen within the ruler's lifetime.
[The Laird of Grant] made all the gentlemen and commons of his name wear whiskers, and make all
their plaids and tartan of red and green, and commanded them all to appear before him at Ballintome,
the ordinary place of rendezvous, in that uniform, in kilt and under arms, which order was complied
with . ''

Fraser 1883, III, 326-7


Note the dates Peter , and note also , the dates of the Clan Grant
paintings by Richard Waitt .

[mddock58]

The pieces you quoted only signify that the common colors used in their tartans were "red and green" not that there was a "specific" tartan designed for the clan at that time.

As we have seen in much research, there are many specifics left out, but we tend to define or interpret them as we wish. I am not saying that there was no specific tartan for the Grants, from what you posted, but that what was posted is vague, and can be interpreted many ways.

There are many scholarly works that contain mis-information, mostly because they accepted information of questionable sources. If we could travel back, we could know for sure, but we all try to piece histories together from sources we can access.

Tartans did not really have significance (as far as patterns, for history's sake) until they became manufactured more commonly. When they were woven by local "artisans" there would have been a large variation in design, because they would not "count threads" or see colors the same.

This seems to be an argument that is trying to be "won", when until there is verifiable evidences brought forth to change what is currently known, there is no point in arguing.

This is an interesting thread, but the vehement attitude should be set aside.

[Quaich Maker]

The pieces you quoted only signify that the common colors used in their tartans were "red and green" not that there was a "specific" tartan designed for the clan at that time.

As we have seen in much research, there are many specifics left out, but we tend to define or interpret them as we wish. I am not saying that there was no specific tartan for the Grants, from what you posted, but that what was posted is vague, and can be interpreted many ways.

There are many scholarly works that contain mis-information, mostly because they accepted information of questionable sources. If we could travel back, we could know for sure, but we all try to piece histories together from sources we can access.

Tartans did not really have significance (as far as patterns, for history's sake) until they became manufactured more commonly. When they were woven by local "artisans" there would have been a large variation in design, because they would not "count threads" or see colors the same.

This seems to be an argument that is trying to be "won", when until there is verifiable evidences brought forth to change what is currently known, there is no point in arguing.

This is an interesting thread, but the vehement attitude should be set aside.

The writings give the colours , the paintings give the sett .
All give the Clan

[mddock58]

The painting gives a representation of the sett as worn by the piper at the time the painting was created, not proof that this was a specified "Clan" sett.

[Peter C.]

Quite so Peter ,
evidence such as this

'' Clearly the periodic muster of fencible men stiffened loyalty and dependency in a period
when both were frequently tested in the Highlands. Entries for 1704 in the Regality Court Books
of the Laird of Grant record the calling out, on 48 hours' notice, of the 'fencible men' of Badenoch
and Strathspey for the Laird's 'hosting or hunteing'; each man was to be dressed in 'Heighland
coates, trewes, and short hoes of tartane of red and greine sett broad springed and also with gun,
sword, pistoll and durk ... And the Master to outrig the servantes in the saids coates, trewes, and
hose out of there fies' .''

Stewart 1893, 27-8

and this

'' A sense of kinship and identity must have been strengthened when Ludovick Grant of
Freuchie made a settlement of his estates on his eldest son, Colonel Alexander Grant of Grant, in
1710; at a formal and elaborate ceremony the old laird resigned the leadership of the clan to his
heir. This selection of the heir to the estate before the witness of the clan is reminiscent of the
'tanistry' of the early Irish law tracts by which the successor designate or heir presumptive, an
tanaiste, was chosen within the ruler's lifetime.
[The Laird of Grant] made all the gentlemen and commons of his name wear whiskers, and make all
their plaids and tartan of red and green, and commanded them all to appear before him at Ballintome,
the ordinary place of rendezvous, in that uniform, in kilt and under arms, which order was complied
with . ''

Fraser 1883, III, 326-7


Note the dates Peter , and note also , the dates of the Clan Grant
paintings by Richard Waitt .

Hi Ian,

My statement about knowledge was pretty general and I did feel a little guilty after I had posted it, because there are many very "well studied" people who post on these forums, and you would seem to be another. However I still say it is a fact that many expat scots want history to be the way they would like it rather that the way it is.

The discussion was about Black Watch tartan- I don't see any evidence in those two statements to say that the Grants wore Black Watch tartan.

Peter