Interesting email from an Irish fellow about Irish kilts.

[arrScott]

The letter-writer is certainly correct, at least from a certain very limited point of view.

But culture is what people do. That's all. "Irish culture" is nothing more than what Irish people do. So any understanding of Irish culture depends first and foremost on defining what is an Irish person. The writer in effect argues that only people born and currently living in Ireland are Irish, so only their culture is "real" Irish culture.

But for every person of Irish descent living in Ireland, there are seven people of primarily Irish descent living in the United States. Irish-Americans have long maintained some distinctive cultural traditions in the United States. Maybe it would be more proper to call this "Irish-American culture" than "Irish culture," but the sense of "Irishness" remains quite strong among Irish-Americans. The boisterous, not-true-to-the-homeland celebration of St. Patrick's day dates back to before American Independence. I just read a diary snippet from a Union soldier who described the start of the federal march on Manassas in 1861 as "like a thousand Saint Patrick's Day picnics, without the lemonade."

Which is to say, the popular celebration of St. Patrick's Day in America is actually an older tradition than Irish independence from Britain -- older, in fact, than the modern Irish nationalist movement that led to independence. Along with a number of other things, it's a distinctively American flavor of Irish culture. But that doesn't make it fake or plastic or inauthentic. It's a real cultural heritage that informs the lives of about 44 million Irish-Americans.

So if Irish-Americans wear kilts, then the wearing of kilts is an authentic part of Irish culture in America. Since there are 44 million of us here, and only 6 million people of Irish descent left in Ireland, who is to say which is the "real" Irish culture, if only one can be?

[Mr. MacDougall]

Since there are 44 million of us here, and only 6 million people of Irish descent left in Ireland, who is to say which is the "real" Irish culture, if only one can be?

Something about this part of your statement makes me uncomfortable. Is culture a numbers game? Is it about geography? Is it about genetics?

I think part of my problem is that I, personally, am a mutt. My maternal grand-father came from Germany, so I'm a quarter German. My maternal grandmother was Scots / Cherokee / French / Dutch, so I've got splashes of all of those. My paternal grandmother came from Ireland, so I'm a quarter Irish. My paternal grandfather was Danish / English / Dutch / Greek. So what am I? My answer has always been "an American," but it seems like a lot of people don't want to accept that as an answer.

Most of us who are Americans, whose families have been here for more than a generation, can hardly point to one area of the world from which our ancestors came. Most of mine at least came from Europe; I have friends whose ancestors, while as varried as mine, came mostly from Asia, or Africa. What are they, if not American?

Of the 44 million Irish descendants you quoted, how many have more than a thread of Irish in their cultural heritage? I'm 1/4 Irish, which, as I understand it, means that I could apply for Irish citizenship currently. But I would never claim that I have a better understanding of what it means to be Irish than someone who actually lives in Ireland, even if I and my distant cousins here in America out-number the distant cousins who live in Ireland.

I think the best solution is to say, "this is an Irish-influenced part of an American sub-culture," and let it go at that.

[arrScott]

Something about this part of your statement makes me uncomfortable. Is culture a numbers game? Is it about geography? Is it about genetics?

My point was that it's not a numbers game, and it's not a geography game. The only "real" culture is what real people actually do. The "Irish" traditions of Irish-Americans are no more or less authentic than the "Irish" traditions of people who live in Ireland. Sure, there's a lot of counterfactual nostalgia in the Irish-American sense of Irish-ness, but there's also a lot of deliberate artificiality in the Irish sense of Irish-ness, too. I mean, the potato is a Peruvian crop brought to Ireland by Spanish sailors. So are all the potato dishes I was served in Ireland not really Irish? Does the shepherd's pie I saw on the menu make the pubs I visited in County Kerry really Peruvian pubs or Spanish pubs, not Irish establishments? Of course not. That's a silly way to think of culture, but it's what the original emailer would have us do.

I'm 1/4 Irish, which, as I understand it, means that I could apply for Irish citizenship currently.

Under Irish law, you need to have at least one grandparent who was born in Ireland or who was an Irish national to be eligible for citizenship. I'm about half Irish by ancestry -- my mom's side -- but since the last direct ancestors to come over did so in the 1870s, I won't be getting that EU passport.

It took me a few days to look it up, but the original email talking about plastic Paddies and whatnot reminded me of an old Hawaiian saying I came across once. When a Hawaiian was embarrassed by or ignorant of traditional Hawaiian culture, he was said to be "he Hawai'i 'uwala Kahiki." Or, in English, "An Irish-potato Hawaiian."

Come to think of it, I wouldn't mind being an Irish-potato Hawaiian!

[Kid Cossack]

Something about this part of your statement makes me uncomfortable. Is culture a numbers game? Is it about geography? Is it about genetics?

Maybe culture is about how you feel?

I think part of my problem is that I, personally, am a mutt.

That's not a problem! That's a blessing. We mutts are blessed with hybrid vigor. Neat stuff!

My maternal grand-father came from Germany, so I'm a quarter German. My maternal grandmother was Scots / Cherokee / French / Dutch, so I've got splashes of all of those. My paternal grandmother came from Ireland, so I'm a quarter Irish. My paternal grandfather was Danish / English / Dutch / Greek. So what am I? My answer has always been "an American," but it seems like a lot of people don't want to accept that as an answer.

If they don't want to accept "I'm an American" (or "I'm a Canadian" or "An Aussie, mate, right down to the marrow") then that's THEIR problem.

Most of us who are Americans, whose families have been here for more than a generation, can hardly point to one area of the world from which our ancestors came. Most of mine at least came from Europe; I have friends whose ancestors, while as varried as mine, came mostly from Asia, or Africa. What are they, if not American?

Of the 44 million Irish descendants you quoted, how many have more than a thread of Irish in their cultural heritage? I'm 1/4 Irish, which, as I understand it, means that I could apply for Irish citizenship currently. But I would never claim that I have a better understanding of what it means to be Irish than someone who actually lives in Ireland, even if I and my distant cousins here in America out-number the distant cousins who live in Ireland.

I think the best solution is to say, "this is an Irish-influenced part of an American sub-culture," and let it go at that.

[Jock Scot]

I have to admit that I have no idea what the historical truths are when it comes to the Irish and their kilts. No doubt, to some, that truth really matters, to others not one bit, but if the Irish want to wear the kilt than that is fine by me, if their ancestors wore the kilt then thats fine by me too. What is not fine by me, is people being rude or unkind, particularly if they are a guest in someone else's home or country.

[CelticMedic]

From an earlier post by kallan..."My son(who will be here in Oct.) will basically be 1/3 Irish, 1/3 German, 1/3 Mexican. So, according to this dude, he won't be able to celebrate ANY of his heritages. If he wants to be a kilt wearing Luchador"
I personally would actually PAY to go see "Herr Hombre McMex" wrestle...

[meinfs]

I have an American friend who was adopted. He never knew his real parents; he doesn't have brothers and sisters and cousins. His adoptive parents have recently passed. He is white but he doesn't know from where.

Before I learned of this, I asked him what his ethnic ancestry was and he just didn't know.

He wants to wear a kilt (he's seen mine) and I will make him one.

[gilmore]

I have an American friend who was adopted. He never knew his real parents; he doesn't have brothers and sisters and cousins. His adoptive parents have recently passed. He is white but he doesn't know from where.

Before I learned of this, I asked him what his ethnic ancestry was and he just didn't know.

He wants to wear a kilt (he's seen mine) and I will make him one.

You might suggest that he go to www.familytreedna.com and take a look at their FAQ if he is interested in his biological ancestry. They have projects for adoptees. Testing his Y chromosome DNA is quite likely to reveal his biological father's surname, and even more likely to reveal his father's ethnicity. He could also test his mitochondrial DNA and probably discover his biological mother's ethnicity, though it would be less likely to find her surname.

It costs a couple of hundred dollars, is simple and painless, and takes about 6 weeks to get the results.

[meinfs]

You might suggest that he go to www.familytreedna.com and take a look at their FAQ if he is interested in his biological ancestry. They have projects for adoptees. Testing his Y chromosome DNA is quite likely to reveal his biological father's surname, and even more likely to reveal his father's ethnicity. He could also test his mitochondrial DNA and probably discover his biological mother's ethnicity, though it would be less likely to find her surname.

It costs a couple of hundred dollars, is simple and painless, and takes about 6 weeks to get the results.

Excellent. Thanks for the suggestion.

[Larry124]

...But for every person of Irish descent living in Ireland, there are seven people of primarily Irish descent living in the United States. Irish-Americans have long maintained some distinctive cultural traditions in the United States. Maybe it would be more proper to call this "Irish-American culture" than "Irish culture," but the sense of "Irishness" remains quite strong among Irish-Americans.
So if Irish-Americans wear kilts, then the wearing of kilts is an authentic part of Irish culture in America. Since there are 44 million of us here, and only 6 million people of Irish descent left in Ireland, who is to say which is the "real" Irish culture, if only one can be?

Good post.

When folks ask me if I'm Scottish, I say no, I'm American. I am from an Irish-American background with grandparents and great-grandparents born in Ireland and parents who grew up in a big city Irish-American neighborhood. But I don't say that. I just say American. I wear kilts for comfort and style. And if the kilt is tartan I know it's name and something about the clan/family.

The letter writer sounds to me like an angry young man. Been there, done that. Got over it (mostly).
Is there "Irish Cringe"?