Creating new patterns for kilt jackets

[Chef]

Working from the success of the X-kilt pattern and other kiltmaking groups and classes, I propose that we form a work group to tackle the issue and create a method to create patterns customized to our bodies and methods of construction and tailoring to make them fit as well as we can manage (not being professional tailors).

It strikes me that in looking at kilt jackets, most don't do a good job of fitting in length (reaching the waist or fell) or are hard to come by in larger or tall/short sizes that truly fit.

I admire your idea, but for most people who are not trained tailors I think it will be harder to accomplish this and end up with something that will pass as a proper modern men's jacket. And since a good kilt jacket is more fitted than a suit jacket it would be that much more difficult. I'm not saying you shouldn't pursue it just that it is much harder than it looks.

For example: Shouldn't the sides of a Prince Charlie should come at least to the waist to cover the shirt, and the tail drop to the fell line on the kilt? I know mine doesn't, even though it is supposed to be a "long". .

In most cases here it is one of two causes. Either the kilt is being worn too low or many non-traditionals are made with a lower rise than a proper kilt. If you wear a traditional kilt with a proper rise (at least to your belly button) you won't have a problem. Only if I lift my arms directly overhead do I show any shirt with a PC.

[AtagahiKC]

Thanks, Chef. I'm not naive. I know what I'm getting into.

As for the PC, my PC is too short for me. I have a long torso and the jacket itself, even in a long size, doesn't drop far enough on the sides. Just one of those delightful variations of the human body that doesn't fit with the "normal" parameters of clothing sizing.

[Dixiecat]

I have read this thread with interest and I have to say that AtagahiKC you are definitely embarking on a long journey. I'm not saying that you can't do it, but your ambitions to provide your fellows with a custom-fit pattern may be more complicated than it's worth for the average person. Think about your own words "i'm not naive, i know what i'm getting into". This is not something for the average person, but an in-depth study of a wonderful art. How are you going to translate that body of knowledge into something an average person can understand and use? If there was an easy way, it would already have been done. Seriously.

I would also update your references to:
(although the Classic Tailoring Techiniques is good. Some of my refs are geared with women's clothing in mind, however they are still very good starts)

Fitting & Pattern Alteration: A Multi-Method Approach
by Liechty, Pottberg, Rasband

The Sew/Fit Manual (Book)
By Ruth Oblander and Joan Anderson

MAKE YOUR OWN PATTERNS
by Rene Bergh

Tailoring: The Classic Guide to Sewing the Perfect Jacket
Singer Sewing Reference Library by Creative Publishing
(real and up close photos of the sewing method)

Also, have a look at:
Real Fit for Real People
Pati Palmer; Marta Alto & Jeannette Schilling
-definitely geared for women, but it shows you the technique of taking a commercial pattern and altering it to fit by fitting the tissue to the body first

I'm thinking that you should lean in the Real Fit direction by learning how to fit a Real Man from a commercial pattern template. Check out the McCalls Palmer/Pletsch patterns and you'll see extremely detailed instructions and pattern markings that are enormously helpful in fitting the commercial pattern. You may find these helpful in translating fit to the average person.

Paper: Try medical table paper liner on 200yd rolls. I get mine ($8) from a medical supply store, but some get it direct from their doctor.

Don't get me wrong. What you are trying to do is a wonderful thing. Definitely a needed thing. Don't hesitate to contact me if you need some advice.

[gilmore]

...This is not something for the average person, but an in-depth study of a wonderful art. How are you going to translate that body of knowledge into something an average person can understand and use? If there was an easy way, it would already have been done. Seriously.

.....

I am so glad no one told Barbara Tewksbury this when she and her co-author were contemplating writing their book on kiltmaking. Or if they did, she didn't take their advice.

[Mark Keeney]

sorry duplicate post

[Mark Keeney]

On patterns I have the folkwear pattern and the simplicity both can make accecptable jackets (the folkwear seems a little better) I also bought a McCall's costume pattern #M4745. I was thinking of using the top part of the long coat.

Here is a jacket I made with a burda pattern.

Sorry the pictures are fuzzy it was taken a while ago with my old camera.

The older burda patterns were better than McCalls, Simplicity, Butterick, or even Vogue.

To make a jacket look the best you will need a suit form to get the fit right.

[AtagahiKC]

Thanks everyone for your input. Great job, Mark.

As for the naysayers, perhaps a pep talk is in order. Everything is impossible until someone comes along and proves everyone else wrong. I'm not saying that I'm that person, but I'll never get there unless I try.

If I'd listened to my father, I'd never have gone to college. In the end, I graduated from law school, despite my undiagnosed ADHD (and I wasn't in the bottom of my class, despite having half my brain tied behind my back). No matter how well-intentioned my father might have been, had I listened to him, I'd have stayed in the middle of Kansas doing something that I hated.

Tailoring is an art, not rocket science. That means it will require practice and development of technique and skills. It is not impossible, it just takes dedication to learning how to do it reasonably well. I don't have to learn to do it to the professional level, just to the level that satisfies me.

Tailors might be able to tell what mistakes I've made, but I doubt that I'll be circulating my jackets in the tailor community. In my experience, most other people will never be able to tell my mistakes, unless I tell them.

I am an artist. I often do things that others have told me is impossible. But the fact is, all it takes is patience and practice. A little perseverence goes a long ways.

I often say that painting is 90% technique, which can be learned, and 10% inspiration. No artist starts out painting masterpieces. In fact, every masterpiece has mistakes in it.

X-rays of the master paintings almost always show where the artist made major mistakes and corrected it. Every artist continues learning and improving her techniques until they stop producing art.

There was an old master painting in the Nelson-Atkins Museum of Art in Kansas City that I loved. It is a Caravaggio of John the Baptist. I decided to copy the painting to learn Caravaggio's technique with skin, which is unbelievable. I started it during my first year of law school, which is the hardest, most stressful year of law school.

People told me that I was crazy, that I wouldn't succeed. And the first attempt was not successful, but by making the mistakes on the first attempt, I learned how to do it successfully the second time.



I can tell where it isn't as good as Caravaggio's, but very few other people can, other than the deliberate changes I made to the composition and colors. Most only notice the addition of the Wayfarers (the dramatic shadows on the original looked like he should be wearing sunglasses to me, and it was an artistic comment).

Was it easy? No, old masters used glazes, which is a pigment with a high amount of oil to turpentine ratio, making some shades very transparent. The theory is that the light passes through the glazes, hits the white ground and reflects back the rich glaze colors.

It took each coat of glaze a week to dry, even in the Arizona desert. The red took at least 25 coats to get the rich color I desired. The second attempt took one and a half years to complete.

Was I successful? When I had it framed, the framer had to put a "sold" sign on it to get people to quit trying to buy it.

Is it the best Caravaggio copy ever made? No. Did I master the technique entirely? No, I still see room for improvement.

But it was successfully rendered to a point that others wanted the painting badly. They couldn't see the flaws that I see. They only saw something that in their opinion they could not do.

This is the way I look at it. Yes, the first attempt may not succeed in a good jacket. But my second attempt will be better. And it will improve with each subsequent attempt. Other than a tailor, no one will be able to see my mistakes, especially since the lining will cover them.

At the very worst, I'll have a pattern that fits my body that I can take to a tailor and have him do the construction to make a great jacket that fits like no other one has. At the best, I'll have learned a new set of skills that allow me to make custom jackets.

And I'm not doing this alone. The others who do this will enrich our knowledge with what they found worked or did not work. We will get to move faster across the learning curve because we are doing this as a group.

So choose carefully whose advice you take to heart. There may be many reasons why you don't succeed at something, but don't let the reason be that you believed someone who told you that you couldn't do it.

[Dixiecat]

Gilmore and AtagahiKC:
I am not a naysayer. Not once did I say you couldn't do what you are intending. You must be realistic. I am a sewer and a custom-fit expert and you're right, it's not rocket science. It is a matter of in-depth learning and experience. I'm all for you taking up the challenge of learning how to make custom-fit jackets. However, your post was about conveying that knowledge into a set of simple instructions for the average sewer.

You shouldn't expect that you can delve deeply into a subject such as custom-fit and expect to be able to convey that knowledge to the average sewer. Could I spend the same amount of time learning the art techniques that produced your beautiful copy and expect to be able to write simple instructions for the average person to reproduce what I did? NO.

I simply tried to point you in the direction that would help the average sewer. I work in the custom sewing pattern business so I know first hand exactly what you are doing. My offer still stands. I would be glad to offer you any assistance I can.

[AtagahiKC]

Dixiecat: I didn't think your post was particularly a naysayer post, so sorry if you took it that way. I was thinking of the number of discouraging posts that this topic has generated and was getting down a bit myself. I figured everyone needed a pep talk.

Of course, we welcome your participation and guidance through the project.

In particular, you added several books for people to peruse on the patternmaking/adjusting topic. I have the same books and think they are good, as well.

But I disagree a bit with you. You might not paint a painting like mine, but I could reduce the instructions to a state in which you could use the techniques on your own project.

That is the point of this - we're going to try to figure out what works best and provide the best direction we can to other sewers (average or otherwise) who want to try it. I doubt most will want to try it, but at least we've provided some direction for those who do.

Better some direction than none, right?

[AtagahiKC]

First Assignment:

First up for all of us is to decide on the type of our first jacket. I am purposely limiting this to the two most popular: the Argyle and the Prince Charlie.

Which one does the majority of us want to work on first? I propose the Argyle since it is the more versatile of the two and can be worn more often, but I'm equally willing to tackle the PC if everyone wants to do that instead.

There is a poll at the top of the page for you to vote. It closes in seven days. Thanks for your participation!