Looks like Blackwatch?

[Oldhiker]

yes Matt is correct. just trying to rewrite history.

[M. A. C. Newsome]

Technically you are indeed correct. However "unorthodox", Sutherland clansmen/women are not loathe to wear the Black Watch as a clan tartan (besides the usual red and white overstriped clan tartan, as in my avatar), as well as the pre amalgamation A&S Highlanders lighter shade Sutherland tartan. Regarding the former Tartan, the chicken or the egg conundrum comes into play with the famous MacIan "Sutherland Clan" print.

We Sutherlands tend to view Sutherland County and the 93rd Reg. as our own in more than namesake, don't you know.

Certainly a lot of Sutherlands wear the Black watch tartan. Because it is the Sutherland district tartan. And the Sutherland family name came from the Sutherland district. So any Sutherland should feel free to wear the Black Watch, because it is also the Sutherland district tartan.

But that does not make it a "clan tartan" for the Sutherlands. The tartan is meant to represent the place named Sutherland. There is a completely different tartan meant to represent the clan named Sutherland.

It gets a bit confusing because in this case the clan and the place have the same name. But here's another example. The MacLeans are from the Isle of Mull. A MacLean may choose to wear the MacLean tartan, or the Mull tartan. One would represent the clan. The other would represent the place the clan is from. He is wearing them both because of his clan heritage. But one is a clan tartan, the other a district tartan. It all boils down to what the tartan is meant to represent.

In this case the Sutherland district tartan (aka Black Watch) is meant to represent the geographical place.

And, of course, the connection between the Sutherland district and this tartan is due to the fact that it was worn by the Argyll & Sutherland regiment. Prior to 1984 they wore the tartan in slightly lighter shades than the Black Watch, so one could easily distinguish between a solider of the A&S and the Black Watch from the darkness of his kilt. After 1984 the two regiments went to the same shade, but the kilts were pleated differently (A7S to the green, BW to the blue). Today, of course, with the amalgamation of all the regiments, this is a non-issue.

[Mike S]

Matt,

I understand fully all that you have reiterated, I AM a Sutherland myself and am well versed on Sutherland clan and county history. As you can see from my avatar, I have elected to use the PROPER Sutherland Old clan Tartan myself. I also understand that your clarification is intended to enlighten the uninitiated with the official stance on the subject for the record. On that level I agree completely. Your perspective outlines the modern, rules and regulations doctrine on Official Clan tartans proper perfectly.

My point is, that however Unorthodox it may seem to the clan and heraldry police, this is not uncommon practice among many within the Sutherland clan and later societies for the reasons I'VE outlined previously. Historically, Sutherlands have typically taken a more possessive and entitled view toward the 93rd and the County as a whole, and thus their tartans and devices, than the name's sake might officially, and historically, entitle them.

The compartmentalization of District, Regimental, and Clan Tartans, and distinction between what is to be worn purely as a clan tartan, and a county, regimental etc. is more cut and dry to the modern aficionado than was the case a hundred or more years ago, to be certain. Their use was (and in some circles still is) blurred in practical usage. This is not based on speculation, but extant evidence in the form of paintings, photos, accounts, museum and private collection pieces. It doesn't fit neatly into modern protocol, but is a historical fact none the less.

Mind you, it's not my intention to split hairs over this (at the end of the day, we agree completely), but to make clear my original points.

[creativeaccents]

A look at the Black Watch web site reveals that they say the Black Watch Tartan is a "free tartan" to be used by anyone without violating any tartan registration regulations which is at least in part why it is used "generically" by any wishing to wear a tartan but not necessarily being of a family with a registered tartan

[Mike S]

AGAIN,

I am talking about historical usage and customs, not modern, registered rules and regulations. There seems to be preoccupation with these recently conceived conventions regardless of what was common, factual practice. If you sleep better at night having things neatly pigeon holed, more power to you. Our ancestors would have a good laugh at our expense.

Taken to it's tenth degree, bureaucratic red tape abounds with our Modern little societies, no?

[macwilkin]

A look at the Black Watch web site reveals that they say the Black Watch Tartan is a "free tartan" to be used by anyone without violating any tartan registration regulations which is at least in part why it is used "generically" by any wishing to wear a tartan but not necessarily being of a family with a registered tartan

Which web site are you referring to?

T.

[M. A. C. Newsome]

Mike,

I would argue that 100+ years ago many of the older folks in the Highlands would give no thought to the concept of "clan tartans" or "district tartans." In The Kilt and How to Wear It by The Hon. Stuart Ruaidri Erskine, written in 1901, he gives account of a Mr. Campbell of Islay, whose remarks are dated 1882, as saying, "My old tailor, a Campbell, always called mine [his tartan] 42nd. He knew nothing of clan tartans; neither did my piper, Mure; neither do I."

He called his tartan by his regimental number, and that was that! Many of our traditions about clan tartans began life with the uniform tartans of the regiments, and the close associations between regiments and certain clans -- this is why so many of our "clan tartans" are also military tartans; and consequently based on the Black Watch. Think of Gordon or MacKenzie.

So it wouldn't surprise me that a few generations ago many Sutherlands would wear the Black Watch tartan as a clan tartan, because of the close association the clan had with the Argyll & Sutherland regiment. But I betcha they would have never called it "Black Watch!" I imagine they'd have referred to it as "the 93rd!"

~M

[Mike S]

Matt,

We seem to have some trouble communicating our thoughts on this issue to one another succinctly, as we have been saying basically the same thing (some might say ad nauseum ) throughout.

My statement wasn't that Regimental tradition didn't observe specific tartans as there own historically, but that clansmen/women didn't hesitate to use them as "clan" tartans where they deemed applicable and appropriate. The "blurring" of distinctions was aimed at that facet.

I come from centuries of Career Military officers, some served in the pre amalgamation 93rd Sutherland Highlanders. Regimental Traditions are not foreign to me, and I would not wish to imply that they didn't run deeply and soundly.

Cheers my friend.

[Oldhiker]

very interesting exchange.

[Mike S]

very interesting exchange.

Interesting, as in beating the hell out of a dead horse?