Who Was Prince Charlie Anyway?

[gilmore]

...Edit: Downplay the kilt pin to a simple pin as it was Queen Victoria herself that invented (?) the kilt pin by using a hat pin on a soldiers wayward kilt one windy day.

This story has been going around for decades, and is as factual as the one about the Prince Albert: not at all.

[Panache]

This story has been going around for decades, and is as factual as the one about the Prince Albert: not at all.

It is a rather charming story though.

Cheers

Jamie

[ccga3359]

A fictitious kilt check is still a kilt check ! So when did the kilt pin make an appearance? We are looking to get Farlander kited up for the mid to late 1800 Scotland.

Here is a pic of Queen Vic's favourite Scot; John Brown.

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

A fictitious kilt check is still a kilt check ! So when did the kilt pin make an appearance? We are looking to get Farlander kited up for the mid to late 1800 Scotland.

Here is a pic of Queen Vic's favourite Scot; John Brown.

About half way up the kilt on the R/H side of the apron is either a kilt pin or a small buckle to keep the apron in place.

[BoldHighlander]

About half way up the kilt on the R/H side of the apron is either a kilt pin or a small buckle to keep the apron in place.

I suspect it is a kilt pin of some sort, much like the one worn in this painting by Kenneth MacLeay of Farquhar MacDonald (left) & Lachlan MacDonald (right).



Note the one on Farquhar MacDonald's kilt that looks very much like a Penannular brooch. Though Brown's is partially obscured, it closely resembles the one worn by MacDonald above.
Having collected a number of MacLeay's prints I note an absence on many of his subjects of wearing any sort of kilt pin, with the exception of Brown, MacDonald & William MacDonald (below):



the Prince of Wale's Piper, shown with a banner embroidered with the arms of the Prince of Wales, and in the background is Abergeldie Castle. Note the kilt pin about midway down, under the dirk.
Also note how much higher the kilt pin was worn (when worn) during Victorian times by these individuals.

I love MacLeay's works of "Queen Victoria's Highlanders"

[davim19]

On the pic of John Brown and the piper the "brooch" doesn't seem to be on the apron but to the side, could it even be a buckle placed part way down to preserve modesty, it would make sense either way but the placement is what pushes me towards the buckle route.

Personally though, the term "Prince Charlie" always brings views of a small syphilitic italian wearing a womans dress and making a big deal about travelling across a short stretch of water to Skye. As my Fiancee said when she first saw the "sea to Skye".
"Why did she use a boat, she could have thrown him across."

[Arlen]

As my Fiancee said when she first saw the "sea to Skye".
"Why did she use a boat, she could have thrown him across."

I can see why you are marrying her!

[BoldHighlander]

On the pic of John Brown and the piper the "brooch" doesn't seem to be on the apron but to the side, could it even be a buckle placed part way down to preserve modesty, it would make sense either way but the placement is what pushes me towards the buckle route.

If it is a buckle then it doesn't seem to be a common feature. MacLeay painted a set of 31, mostly kilted, and these would be the only ones I remember seeing such a feature. As for the piper if you follow the lines of the sett on the apron on up the "pin" most certainly is on the apron, albeit fairly close to the edge.

I'm still leaning towards kilt pins of some sort, however my mind is open to other possibilities if anyone has evidence to the contrary.

[Colin]

Here is a pic of Queen Vic's favourite Scot; John Brown.

Come on... That looks nothing like Billy Connelly. Next you are going to tell us that William Wallace didn't really look like Mel Gibson


Seriously, that's a cool picture. It's intersting to see how differnt the pocket flaps are on this version from today's tweed argyle coats. I reminds me more of of the side of some doublets.

[ccga3359]

Come on... That looks nothing like Billy Connelly. Next you are going to tell us that William Wallce didn't really look like Mel Gibson


Seriously, that's a cool picture. It's interesting to see how different the pocket flaps are on this version from today's tweed argyle coats. I reminds me more of of the side of some doublets.

Of course not, although Mel Gibson does have an uncanny resemblance to Sir William Wallace 9especially the height thing) and may be a direct descendant. I recall reading somewhere that John Brown was unique in his choice of solid tweed kilt over a clan tartan.