Who Was Prince Charlie Anyway?

**MacMillan of Rathdown** · 5th February 08, 06:31 PM

Originally Posted by ccga3359

A fictitious kilt check is still a kilt check

! So when did the kilt pin make an appearance? We are looking to get Farlander kited up for the mid to late 1800 Scotland.

Here is a pic of Queen Vic's favourite Scot; John Brown.

About half way up the kilt on the R/H side of the apron is either a kilt pin or a small buckle to keep the apron in place.

**BoldHighlander** · 6th February 08, 12:52 AM

Originally Posted by MacMillan of Rathdown

About half way up the kilt on the R/H side of the apron is either a kilt pin or a small buckle to keep the apron in place.

I suspect it is a kilt pin of some sort, much like the one worn in this painting by Kenneth MacLeay of Farquhar MacDonald (left) & Lachlan MacDonald (right).

Note the one on Farquhar MacDonald's kilt that looks very much like a Penannular brooch. Though Brown's is partially obscured, it closely resembles the one worn by MacDonald above.
Having collected a number of MacLeay's prints I note an absence on many of his subjects of wearing any sort of kilt pin, with the exception of Brown, MacDonald & William MacDonald (below):

the Prince of Wale's Piper, shown with a banner embroidered with the arms of the Prince of Wales, and in the background is Abergeldie Castle. Note the kilt pin about midway down, under the dirk.
Also note how much higher the kilt pin was worn (when worn) during Victorian times by these individuals.

I love MacLeay's works of "Queen Victoria's Highlanders"

**davim19** · 6th February 08, 04:01 AM

On the pic of John Brown and the piper the "brooch" doesn't seem to be on the apron but to the side, could it even be a buckle placed part way down to preserve modesty, it would make sense either way but the placement is what pushes me towards the buckle route.

Personally though, the term "Prince Charlie" always brings views of a small syphilitic italian wearing a womans dress and making a big deal about travelling across a short stretch of water to Skye. As my Fiancee said when she first saw the "sea to Skye".
"Why did she use a boat, she could have thrown him across."

**Arlen** · 6th February 08, 04:10 AM

Originally Posted by davim19

As my Fiancee said when she first saw the "sea to Skye".
"Why did she use a boat, she could have thrown him across."

I can see why you are marrying her!

**macwilkin** · 6th February 08, 04:15 AM

Personally though, the term "Prince Charlie" always brings views of a small syphilitic italian wearing a womans dress and making a big deal about travelling across a short stretch of water to Skye. As my Fiancee said when she first saw the "sea to Skye".
"Why did she use a boat, she could have thrown him across."

You forgot that he was pretending to be an Irish maid...

Good on ya & yer fiancee!

T.

**davim19** · 6th February 08, 08:34 AM

Originally Posted by Arlen

I can see why you are marrying her!

Too right, I have promised not to wear a kilt for the ceremony so as not to upstage her. But I may have to look into a contemporary outfit for the reception.

**BoldHighlander** · 6th February 08, 04:16 AM

Originally Posted by davim19

On the pic of John Brown and the piper the "brooch" doesn't seem to be on the apron but to the side, could it even be a buckle placed part way down to preserve modesty, it would make sense either way but the placement is what pushes me towards the buckle route.

If it is a buckle then it doesn't seem to be a common feature. MacLeay painted a set of 31, mostly kilted, and these would be the only ones I remember seeing such a feature. As for the piper if you follow the lines of the sett on the apron on up the "pin" most certainly is on the apron, albeit fairly close to the edge.

I'm still leaning towards kilt pins of some sort, however my mind is open to other possibilities if anyone has evidence to the contrary.

**McClef** · 6th February 08, 04:55 AM

I wonder who the original designer of the PC was and if he (or she) coined the name?

**Zardoz** · 6th February 08, 07:41 AM

Lots of kilts at our Dickens on the Strand fest last year. Since the dress tends to be late 1800's Victorian formal, most were worn with PC jackets and blak tie, like a Burns supper was about to break out! I think an Argyll and waistcoat, with period shirt and neckwear is more "authentic" for the period. Not sure about deerstalkers, but do have a hat, everyone wore hats in those days.