Who Was Prince Charlie Anyway?

[Prester John]

A fictitious kilt check is still a kilt check ! So when did the kilt pin make an appearance? We are looking to get Farlander kited up for the mid to late 1800 Scotland.

Here is a pic of Queen Vic's favourite Scot; John Brown.

I notice that John Brown is wearing what we would today call a horsehair sporran, something considered inappropriate for non-military/pipe band use.

When did this change? Anyone?

[beloitpiper]

I notice that John Brown is wearing what we would today call a horsehair sporran, something considered inappropriate for non-military/pipe band use.

When did this change? Anyone?

Notice that his sporran is different. Military ones are cut straight at the bottom, whereas Brown's is rough and scraggly. I've seen this kind worn by civilians nowadays, but have been unable to find one myself.

[Monkey@Arms]

I notice that John Brown is wearing what we would today call a horsehair sporran, something considered inappropriate for non-military/pipe band use.

When did this change? Anyone?

Not a complete answer, but two references to changing sporran fashions taken from the Scottish Tartans Authority website.

Basically the costume for civilian wear may also be said not to have altered since the 18th century. Yet, in matters of detail, each generation has introduced modifications, and even modern fashions have appropriately exerted their influences, though curiously enough, they have in matters of Highland dress in many ways lead to rediscovery of both the practical and artistic advantages of the older Scottish styles which, during the 19 century, had tended to become more oppressive in cut and decoration. As an example of minor changes in taste, the sporran of an all-white goat hair, almost universally the fashion during the Victorian age, has to a great extent given place to a smaller sporran of sealskin, often elaborately decorated with pierced and engraved silver mountings.

http://www.tartansauthority.com/Web/...eartheKilt.asp

The Sporran
Since Highlanders didn't have any pockets in their kilt they needed something to carry their bits and pieces in - including the lead shot for their muskets - and the earliest sporran was a plain draw-string bag of cloth or thin leather that was hung around the waist. More affluent Highlanders decorated their sporrans with a silver top and tassels.

As time went on the sporrans became even fancier and by the late 1800s the sporan molach or hair sporran appeared — made of animal skins such as otter, badger, goat and seal. In Victorian times the sporrans got so huge and fancy that they almost covered the front of the kilt.

http://www.tartansauthority.com/Web/...land_Dress.asp

Best regards,

Jake

[Nanook]

I notice that John Brown is wearing what we would today call a horsehair sporran,

The sporran is probably NOT horsehair but goat hair.

something considered inappropriate for non-military/pipe band use.

That view seems most advocated by pipers--- and most loudly by those that shun Nr1 dress.

When did this change? Anyone?

Probably starting in the 1960s.

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

When did this change? Anyone?

Do you mean "when did the rot set in?" I'd go with the 1960s.

The twilight was the period between the World Wars (when you could still get "nice" things) and the "Golden Age" was sort of 1890-1914, the age we generally refer to as Edwardian (and Yes I know Victoria went t*ts up in 1901 and Edward did the same in 1911). The bespoke items from this period are fantastic examples of craftsmanship. Even the massed produced things were extremely well finished. But by the 1960s all the old craftsmen were pretty much gone, the dies used to stamp out clan badges and the like, in Birmingham, were pretty much worn out, and British labour was a joke-- just look what happened to the British auto industry.

What the 1960s gave us was the homogenized Scotsman, a parody of his elegant forebearers dressed as he was in an off the peg jacket that only fit where it touched, held together with fake horn buttons, with a chunk of coloured glass crowning a sgian dubh imported from Pakistan that hid in the top of his kilt-rental white socks, and wearing a kilt that was too short in the waist, too long in the hem, and often pieced together from the remains left over from another job. The whole art of elegantly wearing highland attire went down the pan with a gurgle that resounded from Sauchie Hall Street to Prince's Street and across the waters to the New World.

Where once a plethora of small shops did bespoke work, or provided made to measure jackets and waistcoats we now find those large retailers whose only interest lies in pushing as much "tartan tat" as possible out the door. The sad thing is that they stay in business due to the ignorance, and belligerence, of their clientele. Ignorant because they know no better, and belligerent when their poor mimicry of proper dress is brought to their attention, no mater how kindly the critique may be phrased.

Will there be a renaissance in highland dress? Hopefully yes, as more true gentlemen eschew the cheap and tawdry in favour of the more expensive quality craftsmen who still ply their trade. In this overly material society, where people subscribe to the theology of "more is better" as a way of compensating for their own moral or social short comings, or to try to fill up the sense of void created by their own low level of self-esteem, I am certain that there are those who will say "I would rather have one nice thing, than a trunk full of tat."

And that "one nice thing" might just be an Edwardian styled sporran.

[Monkey@Arms]

Will there be a renaissance in highland dress? Hopefully yes, as more true gentlemen eschew the cheap and tawdry in favour of the more expensive quality craftsmen who still ply their trade. In this overly material society, where people subscribe to the theology of "more is better" as a way of compensating for their own moral or social short comings, or to try to fill up the sense of void created by their own low level of self-esteem, I am certain that there are those who will say "I would rather have one nice thing, than a trunk full of tat."

And that "one nice thing" might just be an Edwardian styled sporran.

That's a lovely fantasy but unlikely to be most peoples reality in today's world. Unlike the fictional Mr. Steed of Avengers fame, I doubt most people could justify the cost of owning an umbrella made by a British craftsperson, let alone bespoke clothing. I am afraid your vision can only be shared by an economic elite. Men's fashions change, both in matters kilted and nonkilted.

Best regards,

Jake

[BoldHighlander]

One of the great things about MacLeay's paintings of Queen Victoria's highland retainers, is not just that its a snapshot of a time long since gone, but all the wonderful sporrans

I'm going to post three more below that are somewhat different than the rest (most are the hairy 'goat', in some variation or the other).
The first of Duncan Drummond & Andrew Murray, show's Murray with the 'standard' badger:



next is Archibald MacKintosh & Alexander MacKintosh. Note the sporrans, with their raccoon heads, though I question if the body of the sporran is 'coon. In a larger version the fur doesn't look like it, espically when I compare to the raccoon's I've worked with:



finally this one of Kenneth MacSwyde & Donald MacAulay (Harris Men) I find interesting not only for the unusual sporran that MacSwyde is wearing, but also for the hairy waist belt & baldric he has on as well:



It should be noted that the men in the MacLeay portraits were chosen by the clan chiefs themselves. These portraits were commissioned by Queen Victoria around 1865, and were exhibited in Bond Street, London in 1869, where they caused a sensation and a limited edition printing was done in 1870 (they have since been reproduced).
The originals are preserved in the Royal Library at Windsor Castle.

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

That's a lovely fantasy but unlikely to be most peoples reality in today's world. Unlike the fictional Mr. Steed of Avengers fame, I doubt most people could justify the cost of owning an umbrella made by a British craftsperson, let alone bespoke clothing. I am afraid your vision can only be shared by an economic elite. Men's fashions change, both in matters kilted and nonkilted.

Best regards,

Jake

Jake, if permitted the addition of one word, I would tend to agree with about 99.5% of your post.

To be in accord with your comments I'd add the word willing. As in "I doubt most people would be willing to justify the cost of owning an umbrella made by a British craftsperson, let alone bespoke clothing."

I chose the word "willing" because it implies that someone might have to be willing to give up something to have something nice. Now I don't know what someone would have to be willing to sacrifice to own a top quality day wear kilt jacket with matching waistcoat-- certainly not their 60-inch TV, but maybe a couple of bottles of $60 scotch.

At this point I was going to make some comment about removing the phrase "economic elite", but on reflection I think you are right. Oscar Wilde hit it right on the nose when he said "Some people know the cost of everything and the value of nothing". I think recognizing value defines the economic elite down to a tee. You don't have to be rich, but you have to be discerning and, sometimes, willing sacrifice is the price you pay for your discernment.

So it looks as if we are in complete agreement, except for the other part of that 0.5% I mentioned earlier.

You said, "Men's fashions change, both in matters kilted and nonkilted." To which I could only reply that quality never goes out of fashion.

With 100% of my best regards,
Scott

[ccga3359]

Jake, if permitted the addition of one word, I would tend to agree with about 99.5% of your post.

To be in accord with your comments I'd add the word willing. As in "I doubt most people would be willing to justify the cost of owning an umbrella made by a British craftsperson, let alone bespoke clothing."

I chose the word "willing" because it implies that someone might have to be willing to give up something to have something nice. Now I don't know what someone would have to be willing to sacrifice to own a top quality day wear kilt jacket with matching waistcoat-- certainly not their 60-inch TV, but maybe a couple of bottles of $60 scotch.

At this point I was going to make some comment about removing the phrase "economic elite", but on reflection I think you are right. Oscar Wilde hit it right on the nose when he said "Some people know the cost of everything and the value of nothing". I think recognizing value defines the economic elite down to a tee. You don't have to be rich, but you have to be discerning and, sometimes, willing sacrifice is the price you pay for your discernment.

So it looks as if we are in complete agreement, except for the other part of that 0.5% I mentioned earlier.

You said, "Men's fashions change, both in matters kilted and nonkilted." To which I could only reply that quality never goes out of fashion.

With 100% of my best regards,
Scott

I agree whole heartedly! Now where can I get a quality rubber chicken?

[Zardoz]

Those are some great paintings, but you'll notice none of the subjects are wearing anything like a Prince Charlie coatee....
Like the original poster, I'm really interested in when that style of jacket became popular as formal highland dress, I've been digging around on the 'net since this thread started, and have not found any useful info.