Lardbelly, or "the tale of the tail" and Barb's fine book

[SteveB]

Congratulations on enjoying the constructing of the kilt. Have you studied page 33 carefully? I photocopied page 46 and used the copy to have my spouse do the measuring. For Barb's book kilt, I have a 36 waist and a 44 hip measurement. I have in that 36 inches a large forward bulge, as my size 32 Levis (33-1/2" real measure) fit very loose below the gut. My first kilt (solid colour) by the book did fit fairly well as the way Barb has you construct the garment allows a lot of apron give. I still had a very tiny amount of pouch look in the front apron. My second (tartan) kilt by the book, I allowed additional size for the hip to get rid of the pouch. I put on a pair of low rise jeans and tucked a towel in the front and folded it under a few times to expand the front of me to just under the overhang of my gut, fastened it to the widest part of my hips with a belt and had my spouse remeasure me. Much to my surprise that added only 1-1/2 inches to the hip measure. Then following the formula on page 33, set the design measurements on the chart. The tartan kilt came out rather flattering to my body type. BTW even the second kilt was made of inexpensive fabric. I wanted to perfect my skills a little before touching 65 dollars a metre 16 oz. wool tartan. The third kilt is slowly coming into being, and I am certain that Barb's book and a few of her posts here on Xmarks is going to enable me to enjoy my own craftspersonship for many years to come.

[creativeaccents]

You folks are really addressing my concerns very well. Even though the top measure and the bottom measure are the same 46,, how things are distributed is not at all tubular, but front heavy on the top and rear heavy on the bottom, so, if I simply assumed a straight line flow, the lines would be such that the pleats would tend to gape and the line from the navel on down might not be optimal for the flow of the apron.

As pointed out, the narrow box pleats maybe should be reconsidered in favor of the knife style, but narrower than many I have seen for the front portion that is seen. So, the question then becomes the optimal pleat width for the portly and ample rear and how best to address the somewhat S shape of the whole torso in terms of allocating the cutting and the tapering to the plans. Like others, I am hesitant to dive quickly into a fine piece of fabric.

Not having to worry with the tartan design may help on this first one, but the flow and planning for that is just something that I want to be sure to account for to deliver a finished look.

[The Wizard of BC]

You have just, without knowing it, hit on one of the main differences between a Traditional and a Contemporary Style Kilt.

Because a Traditional Style Kilt is made from a very high quality woven wool it drapes and shapes better than almost any fabric developed since. And over the past 200 years some very talented, creative and knowledgable kiltmakers have refined and tweeked the design of the kilt. What you have in Barb's Book is the culmination of that 200 years of knowledge.

You can assure yourself of this by just looking around at your next Games or parade at the kilts and the range of body styles they are on. AND THEY ALL FIT PERFECTLY.

As a Contemporary Style Kiltmaker I had a problem because I didn't want to throw out that 200 years of experience with kiltmaking, but my modern fabrics just don't behave like kilt wool. They are not better or worse, just different.
The main difference is the behavior of the fabric "on the bias" or diagonally if you will.

A Traditional Kilt, made with Barb's Book, will fit the body shape you describe without any problem. The Kilt Wool will mold and adapt to a shape that is basically one cylindrical shape below the Fell and a different conical shape above the Fell. The secret to this is the same thing I have been harping on for quite a while now.

In a Traditional Style Kilt you are NOT wearing the fabric. You are wearing the interfacings and reinforcements built into the kilt that you do not see. The outer Tartan fabric floats over and around the interfacings allowing the fabric to mold to the body it is covering.

A Contemporary Style Kilt does not attempt to throw out and depart totally from the 200 years of knowledge and experience that works so well. It just adapts that knowledge to fabrics that aren't capable of "on the bias" molding.

My advice is to follow Barb's Book EXACTLY until you understand and have learned what makes a kilt act and fit like a kilt. There is an entire chapter devoted to the non Tartan "Self-colored Kilt". Then move to a modern fabric and adapt what you have learned to a different fabric.

Rule 1 If you are using Barb's Book, Use Barb's measuring system.
Rule 2 Don't skimp on your fabric. Buy the highest quality fabric you can find.
Rule 3 Learn how to make a kilt first. Learn from a master. Learn the secrets. It's the old "Don't try to re-invent the wheel rule".

Good luck and be sure to post pics.

[creativeaccents]

NOW I AM INSPIRED!!!! and...it all makes good sense.

Many must have gotten quite a laugh with my intial postings many month's ago when I first began my assault on the perfect kilt. Can't count how many hours I put into that THING. In thory, in my mind, and on paper it all seemed so reasonable. Alas, when I put it on it did try to all hang straight, but the lumps, bumps and unsightly bulges kept wanting to push right through. I must have gone through half a dozen front panels. Then, in looking at the many hip huggers with diagonal bottom lines and dunlops over the belt I knew the reason for the higher fit on a grand physique such as mine. The thinner fabric didn't help as it only accentuated all of the above. I have yet to ever wear "THE THING" outdoors, though I have enjoyed tradtionals from others. Actually, this is why I thought of a sanity check before beginning to measure and cut, lest there be tricks of the trade to better cover my all, lead to a better panel wrap, and a pleating plan that is really suited to such a rear. Even Barb's book alludes to minor adjustments for such. For example, I just don't care for wide pleats other than on the part that is hidden, but your point about the swish factor was well made.

[The Wizard of BC]

Well, remember, the width of the pleat reveal you are talking about is a fairly recent development.

In the early days of kilt design pleats were any old width that the kiltmaker wished. They were also not always pleated as we do today. Pleating to either the stripe or to the Sett was not adhered to until the military standardized the look of kilts.

Box Pleats need to be in the 2" to 3" range to give good swish, On the original Kingussie kilt the pleats are wide, but those are the exception today. Most traditional Kilts today have pleats between 3/4" and 1 1/8".

Knife pleats with a 2" or 3" reveal only came back to common use with Utilikilts. They take less fabric, are easier and faster to manufacture, and give the "In your face" masculine look that UK tries to put forward.

I use a 1 1/2" pleat reveal on my Cargo Model to do the same thing. It produces a kilt with a rugged look.

If you're not using Tartan fabric or have lots of fabric to work with there is no reason you can't have a pleat reveal of whatever size looks good to you.

Within reason of course. Pleat reveals of less than 3/4" look busy. and are prone to a jumbled, or pick-up sticks look. Pleats over about 2 or 2 1/2" have the opposite problem. They move like cardboard and are prone to curling.

[Barb T]

Sorry to weigh in so late on this. I've had a couple of nutty days here.

I have a couple of suggestions:

1) Regardless of what you do with the measurements, be sure that you put only one buckle on the apron edge. For someone with a bit of a bulge in the front, a second buckle typically pulls the apron tight under the belly, which doesn't look good.

2) Consider wearing your sporran with hangers from the belt, rather than with a traditional sporran strap (which tends to emphasize the contour of the belly and doesn't allow the apron to hand smoothly down from the top band).

3) Wear your kilt high enough - don't succumb to the temptation of letting it ride below your belly, which will give you the "pouchy" look.

4) If you're doing a test-run kilt, try adding 1" to the hips measurement. Make the waist and hips measurement in the apron identical (23 and 23), and make the pleats 23 at the waist and 24 at the hips. That will snug the kilt into the small of your back a little and give you a little extra room across the front below your belly. Should work fine.

5) Don't put lots of itty bitty pleats into your kilt. Particularly for a big guy, it starts to look like something other than a kilt. For someone your size, I wouldn't make the pleats any less than about 7/8" at the hips.

Barb

[The Wizard of BC]

Oh, thanks for weighing in here Barb. I knew, because of your schedule, that could take a while.
I hope I didn't step on your toes.

Creative Accents, are you going to be able to make it up to Kilt Kamp? Having a chance to speak to Barb in person is well worth the trip. Bring your project and show it to her. I'm sure she can answer all your questions.

Heck, I'll bet she will even measure you in person.

But then you will have to stick yourself with a needle and take the secret blood oath.

[way2fractious]

...stick yourself with a needle and take the secret blood oath.

C'mon, Steve! Sticking oneself with a needle - repeatedly - during traditional kilt handstitching gives innumerable opportunities to utter those not-so-secret oaths.

w2f

[The Wizard of BC]

Ah yes, but this is why there is a rather thick door between my sewing room and the one where the ladies are. Their poor ears would shrivel up and fall off if they were subjected to my oaths on a regular basis.

[creativeaccents]

SO much valuable information here! Thanks to you all for the sharing of your time and thoughts. I have read and re-read each post and made careful notes on the suggestions.

Still a bit confused re the waist.
Previously, I had assumed that the natural waist should be at the level of the belly button. Trying the exercise in the book would work for most, but when I seek the level between the bottom of the ribs and the hips where things are supposed to taper when bending sideways, it just doesn't work like that; a dunlop only tends to kind of sqoosh outwards. So, is it then best to assume where that magical point used to be when there actually was a more "natural waist", OR is it better to mark an X at the level of the navel or a similar point. Fortunately, the navel line is still below the ribs and above the hips!
I have read and re-read, used highlighter on the points to be read yet again and am TRULY ever more respectful of everyone's talents and the myriad considerations that would go into a properly tailored kilt.
Too, I have been reviewing the genealogy on my 'Legacy Family Tree Deluxe" and come up with ayers, Cameron, Day, Fairbanks, Goodenow, Green, Howe, Huggins, Kennedy, McGregor, McCullough, McCutcheon, Montgomery, Moulton, Murrel, Stanhope, Walker, and many others, but now need to begin looking at them all to determine what does have a tartan, what I like, and what, if any look too complex for my second kilt. For myself, I tend not to wear much bright red...not a judgement, but just not me. I also prefer the more muted, natural colors, as opposed to those that are too complex or screamingly bold.
Now to move on to step two, the fabric.