Clan Fraser Septs?

[macwilkin]

Cajun




Remember, us Lovat Frasers don't all recognise Lady Saltoun, bless 'er cotton socks, as clan chief. I had a good discussion about this in the Fraser heartlands outside Inverness just recently. Not all folks run with your take on things, whatever the Lord Lyon might say to the contrary!

Cheers

Bruce

Bruce,

I never claimed to be the be-all, end-all, but in the case of who is and who isn't a clansman, the Chief traditionally makes that decision, which goes back long before Lord Lyon (which btw, I never mentioned in my posts).

But, if you'll read Lady Saltoun's web site, you'll notice that she does address the whole "two chiefs" issue:

http://www.fraserchief.co.uk/twochiefs.html

She also mentions the "boll o' meal" Frasers here as well (ie Frasers by allegiance).

So, Bruce -- would you care to expound on why you do not recognise Lady Saltoun -- I honestly don't have a dog in the hunt, as we only have one Chief in the Cummings.

Regards,

Todd

[Stratherrick]

Cajun

Apologies, I didn't mean to offend.

Re the Fraser chief problem, as Lady Saltoun had only daughters, one could say her line has failed. That would mean a bun fight as to who is the chief, with Lord Lovat a strong contender!

Okay, it ain't as easy as that as the Saltouns say history is on their side as, of the main two Fraser knight brothers fighting at Bannockburn (1314), Alex and Simon, their progenitor, Alex, was the oldest.

So, do you run with antiquity or modern stances, be my guest!

Cheers

Bruce

[gilmore]

Cajun

...
Re the Fraser chief problem, as Lady Saltoun had only daughters, one could say her line has failed. ...

How?

Chiefships of clans can be held by women, and passed through them to their daughters, if they have no sons. This has occurred many times in history, and there are several other chiefs presently who are women. Lady Saulton's immediate line would fail only if she no children at all. I think I remember reading that Fraser of Lovat is in remainder to the chiefship of the name, but as noted, Lady S has children..


Unlike most English heritable entitlements, many, if not most, Scots peerages can also be inherited by and from women.

[sirdaniel1975]

How?

Chiefships of clans can be held by women, and passed through them to their daughters, if they have no sons. This has occurred many times in history, and there are several other chiefs presently who are women. Lady Saulton's immediate line would fail only if she no children at all. I think I remember reading that Fraser of Lovat is in remainder to the chiefship of the name, but as noted, Lady S has children..


Unlike most English heritable entitlements, many, if not most, Scots peerages can also be inherited by and from women.

Gilmore is absolutely right. I've read about this too. I think it might have been the MacLeod's of Lewis. At least the story I remember reading. If I have the right clan, I think she had to legally change her name to MacLeod. Then again, I might have the wrong clan. I'm going off memory.

[gilmore]

Gilmore is absolutely right. I've read about this too. I think it might have been the MacLeod's of Lewis. At least the story I remember reading. If I have the right clan, I think she had to legally change her name to MacLeod. ....

I think it's that when women become chief of a clan----actually chief of the name---they keep their maiden name, or revert to it if married and using their husband's name, or take de novo if they were born with a surname other than the clan name.

[Stratherrick]

I also remember, but can't put my finger on the link, that in a previous time the Saltoun's did, indeed, have a generation where no children were produced. Following that, I have it in mind that a Lovat line Fraser was drafted in?? I could be dreaming this, mind.

I'm up in the Highlands this coming weekend, so I'll see what I can find out.

As for the strong position of women in Scottish society, one thing to remember is that they are all buried under their maiden names to this day, no subjugation to their husbands north of the border! This makes tombstone hunting a lot easier too!

Cheers

Bruce

[Stratherrick]

Just found this on Wikipedia:

On May 1, 1984, by decree of the Court of the Lord Lyon, the 21st Lady Saltoun was made "Chief of the name and arms of the whole Clan Fraser". Lord Lovat, Simon Christopher Joseph Fraser, was reported to have not given any heed to the decision, dismissing the matter as being beneath him.[21] Since this decree, there has been much confusion as to who is the Chief of the Clan Fraser.

Many believe that this decree made the Lady Saltoun the chief of the Clan. However, the Lord Lyon did not grant the chiefship of the Clan Fraser, just a description of "Chief of the name and arms." The Lord Lyon does not have power over the Chief of a Highland Clan.[22] What the decree did was reinforce the Lady Saltoun's claim to being the head of the senior branch of the wider Fraser family, and granted her the use of the plain and undifferenced Fraser arms (three strawberry flowers on a field of blue).[18] The current Lord Lovat, Simon Fraser retains the chiefship

Hmmm...

Bruce, a Lovat Fraser looking over his shoulder for any stray Saltouns!

[cavscout]

Interesting Bruce. I had not heard about this. We currently have no definite idea which side of the name we descend from since we've only documented back to the early 1800's in the US. The only clue regarding our immigration to the US is the proverbial "2 brothers stowed away on a ship". We spell the name Frazier and realizing names were frequently spelled phonetically on documents it's probably a toss up if we will ever make the link.

[gilmore]

The info in Wikipedia is worth every penny that you pay for it.

[Stratherrick]

Gilmore

I know what you mean about Wiki info being debateable, but the excerpt I gave was from an official Lord Lyon report that is referenced, for once.

Cav

It's a shame you can't get back to pre-1800 just now. One day, though, one day...

Cheers

Bruce