Hobson's choice

[DWFII]

I think that the whole issue of animal cruelty is a bit overblown, anyway. It just doesn't make economic sense. If you treat an animal cruelly...nothing that you harvest from that animal will be optimal.

I'm not saying that mink, chickens, etc., live lives of unbridled hedonistic pleasure but I think, from what I've seen, most animals that are raised for human consumption are treated reasonably...they are not subject to parasites, predators, or pestilence. They are fed and watered regularly. This is a life that is free of stress. Would that we all had it so good.

And again, I think it bears repeating and consideration...these are individual animal that are raised for harvest--they are, in the general scheme of things and given available resources, surplus population. To kill and utilize them may offend the tender sensibilities of some but that is the way the world is. God, chance, evolution made it/us that way. Substituting petro-chemicals threatens whole ecologies and by association, all the free roaming members of multiple species.

But whether you want to flog me for that position now or not it still misses the point...make your choice to live as you will, adhering closely to whatever philosophy you believe in. Pray to whatever gods you wish. But having made the choice...and having made it with intense consideration and a desire to live with integrity...don't make up excuses, or rationales to worship at other shrines.

It seems to me that there is a disturbing cognitive dissonance in smörgåsbording these issues. But then we are living in strange times...See: Jacoby, The American Age of Unreason

[thanmuwa]

I think that the whole issue of animal cruelty is a bit overblown, anyway. It just doesn't make economic sense. If you treat an animal cruelly...nothing that you harvest from that animal will be optimal.

That is not quite true. If you are raising an animal for the luxury end of the market, with premium prices, the animal gets treated well. If on the other hand, you are raising animals for supermarkets or fast food chains, they are not so lucky. It is a question of economics as you say, but it is most often not in search of an optimal harvest but maximum profit which means the lowest amount of space, comfort, food and meat quality that you can get away with. I bet Walmart sells a lot more really cheap tasteless chickens than Kobe beef, Asda over here certainly does!

As you say though it is Hobson's choice.... a teaser set to me once (in an environmental chemistry degree course) was which is better for the environment, recycled paper or fresh paper?

It seems obvious, but when you actually look at it, recycled paper uses LOTS more bleach to make it look white than fresh pulp. Bleach is the really nasty ingredient in paper manufacturing, causing lots of pollution. Cradle to grave, including all CO2 emissions etc. using brand new paper from a sustainable forest and burning it when you have finished has a lower impact on the environment than using (whitened) recycled paper and recycling or binning it when you are finished.
Using metal cutlery comes out only marginally better than disposable recyclable plastic cutlery, because recycling plastic is lower energy than washing up in hot water.....

[FreakPower70]

http://footprint.wwf.org.uk/ here is a little ecological footprint calculater for those of you interested. While it leaves out the debate of real leather or fake leather I think it partly prooves it point by examening how many different ways on can hurt the earth and just how much we do so individually.

[Smayniac]

I'm with the leather crowd here, and when I can get it, I prefer natural fiber clothing. I find them more comfortable than the alternatives. My cousin spent several years in Africa, in the Peace Corps, and brought back wearable gifts on occasion; I have one shirt that I love to look at, I'm sure it's all "natural," but I can't wear it; I suppose something in the dyes is an allergen. I do wear synthetics for outdoor use, my kites are all of synthetic materials.

But I went looking for ALL natural hosiery, not just kilt hose, but socks for work and everyday; and all that I found, be they on "natural goods" websites or what have you, had some synthetic material in them. I wasn't able to find all natural at any cost, much less a "reasonable" one.

I wear mostly leather shoes, except my river shoes. I have been accused of wearing animal "for my own glorification," and I'm sure I will be again when I make up that badger stole into a sporran someday (hopefully soon). I read with interest the post earlier in the thread about picking up road kill for use; I was told by someone I trust on the subject that it's still not legal in California; and so many wild animals in this area are rabid that I'm not sure what would be the appropriate precautions.

I sort of rambled, but I came to the thread late and it brought up several thoughts on my side.

Back to your regularly scheduled thread.

Bob

[Finn]

I concur wholeheartedly with post 1. I work leather. I prefer natural materials for my other projects.

[DWFII]

Maybe the point needs to be restated or clarified. It is not about the virtues of being vegetarian or vegan nor about the severity of animal cruelty or the hue and cry that surrounds the supposed cruelty. Live...believe...as you will and more power to you.

Rather, it is about the cognitive dissonance...in some cases maybe even hypocrisy... that accompanies the usage of leather substitutes by people who are offended by leather.

I suspect that many of the problems that we face as a nation...as a society and in our physical, social and political environments...is a direct result of similar kinds of cognitive dissonance. One has to convince oneself, after all, that a little oil spill will not hurt the estuary just as surely as one has to contend, and believe, that Pleather is not directly responsible for the very transgressions that are so vehemently deplored.

In both cases it is a transference of responsibility.

[GDub]

I will only wear a hide from something I eat--meaning no fox, mink, raccoon, skunk, ferret, rat... whatever. I will eat rabbit so it's on the list. Buffalo and cow are part of the food group. Maybe a chicken or turkey head sporran wound be interesting. A pig snout... Sorry, it's late.

[Frank McGrath]

Is the Nauga extinct now? I haven't seen it's hyde used lately.