County Cork tartans and Arsenal tartan

[thanmuwa]

Gents,

As interesting as this discussion is, let's try to steer the thread back "on-topic", if you please.

Regards,

Todd

Ok then, but to paraphrase the honourable gentleman we were conversing whilst wearing kilts.

Mr O'Callaghan,
Your existing Cork tartan colours are.... imaginative let's say. If you are not comfortable with that and want something "authentic" (whatever that means) then IMHO you have a few options. (Although if I were you, I would just enjoy the kilts you have, knowing that to you they represent Cork and your family ties.)

In short, if you want an "authentic" Irish tartan your choices are very limited. Pretty much Ulster, Clodagh and Tara. They don't represent Cork per se, but they are "authentic" as in they predate 1980 .

If you want a tartan that represents a county (Cork) you could:

a) Choose one of the previously mentioned county tartans of designed by people who didn't seem to have much of a clue, and managed to make some damn ugly tartans in the process (I have to admit though some are nice)

b) You could choose colours that you think represent the county of choice (I think a predominantly red and white tartan would be good for Cork) and promote that, at least to yourself, as the new county tartan. You could restrict your search to non-clan tartans if you put any truck in that.

c) Design your own, which would be as authentic as the others, probably more so considering you have actually heard of GAA and know the county colours of Cork are red and white. Probably a bit expensive though.

d) follow the "tradition" of Irish kilts and get a solid coloured non-tartan one. A solid colour kilt in Cork red with a white shirt would probably be visually very impressive, and it could double as Arsenal kit

Again, if I were you, I would just enjoy what you have, knowing what it means to you, whatever about it's "authenticity". The county (or Corporation) crests that are being matched by some of the tartans you mentioned are not exactly well known within Ireland anyway. Unfortunately for you Cork's two towers crest is probably one of the best known. I had to look mine up (Westmeath) and can only ever remember that there is a swan on it

[Gunnar]

There are several US state, national and district tartans I haven't seen before. The Florida tartan has too much white in it for my tastes. Gunnar and Barb T. may be interested in the Iceland tartan.

Whoa!!!!! I just HAVE to get that!!!!

[O'Callaghan]

Ok then, but to paraphrase the honourable gentleman we were conversing whilst wearing kilts. Mr O'Callaghan, Your existing Cork tartan colours are.... imaginative let's say. If you are not comfortable with that and want something "authentic" (whatever that means) then IMHO you have a few options. (Although if I were you, I would just enjoy the kilts you have, knowing that to you they represent Cork and your family ties.) In short, if you want an "authentic" Irish tartan your choices are very limited. Pretty much Ulster, Clodagh and Tara. They don't represent Cork per se, but they are "authentic" as in they predate 1980 . If you want a tartan that represents a county (Cork) you could: a) Choose one of the previously mentioned county tartans of designed by people who didn't seem to have much of a clue, and managed to make some damn ugly tartans in the process (I have to admit though some are nice) b) You could choose colours that you think represent the county of choice (I think a predominantly red and white tartan would be good for Cork) and promote that, at least to yourself, as the new county tartan. You could restrict your search to non-clan tartans if you put any truck in that. c) Design your own, which would be as authentic as the others, probably more so considering you have actually heard of GAA and know the county colours of Cork are red and white. Probably a bit expensive though. d) follow the "tradition" of Irish kilts and get a solid coloured non-tartan one. A solid colour kilt in Cork red with a white shirt would probably be visually very impressive, and it could double as Arsenal kit Again, if I were you, I would just enjoy what you have, knowing what it means to you, whatever about it's "authenticity". The county (or Corporation) crests that are being matched by some of the tartans you mentioned are not exactly well known within Ireland anyway. Unfortunately for you Cork's two towers crest is probably one of the best known. I had to look mine up (Westmeath) and can only ever remember that there is a swan on it

I'm not greatly worried about authenticity as such. I'd rather wear a tartan of a name or district that I have a connection with, even if it didn't exist before last year, say (which is literally true in the case of the Callaghan tartan) and even if it was designed in a different country than the one it represents (Neither Marton Mills nor House of Edgar being in Ireland, but England and Scotland respectively) rather than wear one that I had no connection with.

On the other hand, having read that Marton Mills base their colours on county crests, I was surprised by the fact that the House of Edgar's tartan appears to match the county crest. Much further down the thread I have learnt that:

1) The crest represents Cork City and the colours of it scarcely appear to be fixed atall, but vary to include almost anything, although invariably some red is in it somewhere;
2) Marton Mills show their tartan next to a Cork crest that it matches, but I have seen the crest in those particular colours nowhere else;
3) The GAA have a version of the crest that actually matches the House of Edgar tartan, and which does represent the county, at least within the GAA.

Ergo, entirely by dumb luck, I am satisfied that I do have a tartan that represents Co. Cork, upto a certain point. Whilst I can see that red and white, as per the GAA flag for Co. Cork, may be more representative of Co. Cork as such, I think that this is too few colours to make a decent tartan, although it would make a good Gingham tablecloth, LOL!

I also take your point about solid colours being more traditional, but will probably go for green. I tend to think a red kilt would be a bit much.

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

Under brehon law multi-coloured clothing was restricted to the chiefly class, which is probably why tartan never really caught on in pre-1600 Ireland in the same way as it did in Scotland. Thus, even though the kilt never figured in Irish history, if you are going to wear one a solid colour would at least be giving a nod to classical Irish traditions.

[O'Callaghan]

Under brehon law multi-coloured clothing was restricted to the chiefly class, which is probably why tartan never really caught on in pre-1600 Ireland in the same way as it did in Scotland. Thus, even though the kilt never figured in Irish history, if you are going to wear one a solid colour would at least be giving a nod to classical Irish traditions.

The Brehon law would also have limited red to chiefs or minor kings, which is another reason not to get a red kilt.

It depends what you mean by history. Kilts were worn in Ireland to some extent during the celtic revival in the late 19th and early 20th century, albeit mostly by the intellectuals of the Gaelic League and by pipers and dancers. Pipers still wear them (and bagpipes in Ireland are old enough to have been banned in the 14th century, should you choose to go there). You can choose to view the celtic revival as bogus, but solid coloured Irish kilts originated in that period, not in your suggestion on this forum today!

I keep editting this post, but I will stop! I just wanted to add that you might have argued in 1890 that there are no kilts in Irish history, had you been around, but that no longer holds water because that period itself is now part of history.

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

Boy, are you able to read into my posts a lot more than is written on the page! I was taking about brehon law limiting the number of colours that could be worn by individuals in the various strata of classical Irish society. That was all. No comment about the Gaelic League, Oscar Wilde, the price of a pint, OR May 23rd, 1892 the date that members of the Gaelic League first got the loony idea to wear a green kilt. (Just kidding about that last bit.)

NO WHERE did I suggest when kilts were first worn in Ireland by the Irish as an expression of national identity.

WHAT I DID SAY was that wearing a solid colour was at least in keeping with the traditions of brehon law. That was it. End of message.

[thanmuwa]

I also take your point about solid colours being more traditional, but will probably go for green. I tend to think a red kilt would be a bit much.

How about a weathered red?

[O'Callaghan]

Boy, are you able to read into my posts a lot more than is written on the page! I was taking about brehon law limiting the number of colours that could be worn by individuals in the various strata of classical Irish society. That was all. No comment about the Gaelic League, Oscar Wilde, the price of a pint, OR May 23rd, 1892 the date that members of the Gaelic League first got the loony idea to wear a green kilt. (Just kidding about that last bit.)

NO WHERE did I suggest when kilts were first worn in Ireland by the Irish as an expression of national identity.

WHAT I DID SAY was that wearing a solid colour was at least in keeping with the traditions of brehon law. That was it. End of message.

Then it wasn't you who said "even though the kilt never figured in Irish history"?

[macwilkin]

Then it wasn't you who said "even though the kilt never figured in Irish history"?

Not in antiquity, anyway -- certainly in the late 19th century when the kilt was adopted by both Irish nationalists and the Irish Regiments of the British Army (mainly pipers). Matt Newsome basically debunks the notion of "ancient" Irish kilts based on the work of H.F. McClintock.

Regards,

Todd

[CameronTaylor]

There are several US state, national and district tartans I haven't seen before. The Florida tartan has too much white in it for my tastes. Gunnar and Barb T. may be interested in the Iceland tartan.

Where do I find these ? I've tried several times but I can't find a list of tartans anywhere on that site.


CT - I want an Aresenal kilt (Go Gunners !)