County Cork tartans and Arsenal tartan

[O'Callaghan]

As many of you know, there are two different tartans for each Irish county, designed by two different mills. House of Edgar (Macnaughton Ltd.) of Perth, Scotland has a range of Irish county tartans, and Morton Mills of Yorkshire, England, has their own entirely different range of 'Irish County Crest' tartans.

Theoretically, the 'Crest' tartans use the same colours as the crest or coat of arms of the corresponding Irish county, and I have read comments in another thread saying that the colours of the House of Edgar range are purely random (but maybe not, as you will see).

One of my kilts is in the House of Edgar tartan for County Cork. Somewhere we also have a Cork City FC soccer shirt that I bought for our son, but which now only fits his sister. Trust me, that's relevant.

I was searching eBay for enamel pin-on badges of the County Cork crest, when I realised a curious fact. The colours of these badges are red, yellow, blue and green, the same colours as my kilt in County Cork tartan. So if the House of Edgar County Cork tartan matches the colours on the county crest, which it apparently does, that means that the Cork County Crest tartan by Morton Mills, which is actually supposed to match the colours of the county crest, doesn't!

Morton Mills use the colours red, yellow and orange to represent the County Cork Crest in their tartan. These colours don't match the enamel pins of the County Cork crest on eBay. However, from memory it seems that the soccer shirt we have may bear the same crest but in those colours, or at least without any blue or green. Bear in mind here, though, that the soccer club represents only Cork City, not County Cork as a whole. AFAIK both crests show a ship sailing between two towers.

So what is going on here? Did Morton Mills mistakenly use colours that represent Cork City, or even Cork City FC? Perhaps someone who actually lives in the old country would have more idea, but I'm merely London Irish, and now I live in the USA.

Talking of soccer tartans, my favourite club, Arsenal FC, who are based in North London where there are lots of Irish, have a registered tartan 'for Scottish Arsenal fans' as they say. It's not bad looking. It's mostly red, which is to be expected as their 'strip' (uniform in US speak) is red and white, and as well as red and white it has yellow (the colour of their 'clash' shirts for playing teams that wear red) and it has some sort of violet shade in there for reasons unknown.

The only things I have seen online in the Arsenal FC tartan, unfortunately, are a collar and lead for a dog, LOL! We don't even own a dog. There may be some here who at that point would go out and acquire a dog, but our cats wouldn't like it.

[BoldHighlander]

As many of you know, there are two different tartans for each Irish county, designed by two different mills. House of Edgar (Macnaughton Ltd.) of Perth, Scotland has a range of Irish county tartans, and Morton Mills of Yorkshire, England, has their own entirely different range of 'Irish County Crest' tartans.

Theoretically, the 'Crest' tartans use the same colours as the crest or coat of arms of the corresponding Irish county, and I have read comments in another thread saying that the colours of the House of Edgar range are purely random (but maybe not, as you will see).

One of my kilts is in the House of Edgar tartan for County Cork. Somewhere we also have a Cork City FC soccer shirt that I bought for our son, but which now only fits his sister. Trust me, that's relevant.

I was searching eBay for enamel pin-on badges of the County Cork crest, when I realised a curious fact. The colours of these badges are red, yellow, blue and green, the same colours as my kilt in County Cork tartan. So if the House of Edgar County Cork tartan matches the colours on the county crest, which it apparently does, that means that the Cork County Crest tartan by Morton Mills, which is actually supposed to match the colours of the county crest, doesn't!

Morton Mills use the colours red, yellow and orange to represent the County Cork Crest in their tartan. These colours don't match the enamel pins of the County Cork crest on eBay. However, from memory it seems that the soccer shirt we have may bear the same crest but in those colours, or at least without any blue or green. Bear in mind here, though, that the soccer club represents only Cork City, not County Cork as a whole. AFAIK both crests show a ship sailing between two towers.

So what is going on here? Did Morton Mills mistakenly use colours that represent Cork City, or even Cork City FC? Perhaps someone who actually lives in the old country would have more idea, but I'm merely London Irish, and now I live in the USA.

It could be coincidence that House of Edgar matches the colours on the county crest as their own website states:

"A series of Irish County tartans designed by Polly Wittering of the House of Edgar in 1997 and inspired by the soft warm colors of Ireland. These designs are copyrighted."
http://www.thescottishweaver.com/irishtartans.html

I had once read somewhere that Morton Mills (or was it Lochcarron's?) Irish tartans were suppose to represent the county crests colours, but unfortunately I cannot now find the source.

I know that if Matt Newsome see's this he can probably provide a better answer than I.

For an article Matt wrote on Irish tartans, see:
http://blog.albanach.org/2005/11/iri...artans-in.html

[thanmuwa]

As Matt and various others have pointed out, the Irish county tartans are a purely Scottish invention. The colours you mention are probable taken from the Cork (city and county) crest, which is two towers (red) with an orangey-yellow background. The towers are usually depicted on two hills (green) and there is a ship sailing between the towers (the sea is blue). Hence the 4 colours you mention for the Edgar tartan. However, the land and sea are not always coloured, which could give you just red, yellow and orange. I haven't seen that tartan though.

Now, if you were to ask a Corkman what were the County Cork colours, red and white would be the answer because those are the GAA colours. I doubt very much if the designers of the tartans realised just how important the GAA teams are to each county's identity. The soccer strips have been several colours, though not a lot of orange has appeared....

A degree of ignorance of Ireland, especially the Republic, is displayed by the designer of the tartans through several clues which I won't mention here as it could veer towards the political...

[O'Callaghan]

As Matt and various others have pointed out, the Irish county tartans are a purely Scottish invention. The colours you mention are probable taken from the Cork (city and county) crest, which is two towers (red) with an orangey-yellow background. The towers are usually depicted on two hills (green) and there is a ship sailing between the towers (the sea is blue). Hence the 4 colours you mention for the Edgar tartan. However, the land and sea are not always coloured, which could give you just red, yellow and orange. I haven't seen that tartan though.

Now, if you were to ask a Corkman what were the County Cork colours, red and white would be the answer because those are the GAA colours. I doubt very much if the designers of the tartans realised just how important the GAA teams are to each county's identity. The soccer strips have been several colours, though not a lot of orange has appeared....

A degree of ignorance of Ireland, especially the Republic, is displayed by the designer of the tartans through several clues which I won't mention here as it could veer towards the political...

This all makes sense. I even knew about the GAA colours, but Morton Mills claimed to be using the county crest colours and not the GAA colours.

I didn't have the Morton Mills tartan in front of me when I posted (I was wearing the other one, though), and it now appears that the Morton Mills version does have blue in it, and the orange I saw in it was probably the effect of a yellow stripe superimposed on red to give an overall impression of orange.

So, probably both use the colours of the crest, which from what you say is the same for the city and the county. I wonder if this might also be true of some or all of the other 31 counties? It would be exhausting to look at them all.

[billmcc]

...Morton Mills...

To clear up any confusion, the tartan maker being discussed is named Marton Mills.
Here is the website: http://www.martonmills.com/

[thanmuwa]

So, probably both use the colours of the crest, which from what you say is the same for the city and the county. I wonder if this might also be true of some or all of the other 31 counties? It would be exhausting to look at them all.

Well, a brief eyeball comparison of this page and the edgar tartan page mentioned above shows quite a few differences. For example, Wexford (purple and yellow are the predominant county colours, whereas the tartan is national colours, more appropriate to Offaly), Tipperary and my own county of Westmeath all seem quite different, Offaly should really be almost the same as the national tartan but it is oddly different, Dublin colours are really some lovely shades of blue with red and yellow on the crest which could have made a lovely tartan, but the edgar tartan is green, brown, red and black (and IMHO horrible) .... in short there seems to be little if any correlation......

[O'Callaghan]

Well, a brief eyeball comparison of this page and the edgar tartan page mentioned above shows quite a few differences. For example, Wexford (purple and yellow are the predominant county colours, whereas the tartan is national colours, more appropriate to Offaly), Tipperary and my own county of Westmeath all seem quite different, Offaly should really be almost the same as the national tartan but it is oddly different, Dublin colours are really some lovely shades of blue with red and yellow on the crest which could have made a lovely tartan, but the edgar tartan is green, brown, red and black (and IMHO horrible) .... in short there seems to be little if any correlation......

So perhaps it is only Cork where both Marton Mills and House of Edgar match the crest. Just as well that my folks came from Co Cork, then. However, Marton Mills does use a red Background for Cork, which seems more appropriate, whereas Edgar has more green.

[O'Callaghan]

Talking of soccer tartans, my favourite club, Arsenal FC, who are based in North London where there are lots of Irish, have a registered tartan 'for Scottish Arsenal fans' as they say. It's not bad looking. It's mostly red, which is to be expected as their 'strip' (uniform in US speak) is red and white, and as well as red and white it has yellow (the colour of their 'clash' shirts for playing teams that wear red) and it has some sort of violet shade in there for reasons unknown.

The only things I have seen online in the Arsenal FC tartan, unfortunately, are a collar and lead for a dog, LOL! We don't even own a dog. There may be some here who at that point would go out and acquire a dog, but our cats wouldn't like it.

I have now found a wide range of stuff, including kilts and fabric, in Arsenal Football Club tartan, at www.internationaltartans.co.uk

So, no need to get a dog, LOL!

They have a few other obscure tartans there as well. Apparently they design custom tartans and they designed that one. They have a few other soccer clubs and some US states as well. Unfortunately, I don't think they are necessarily any cheaper than getting something custom woven.

They have St. George's tartan too. What a concept - an English tartan!

[billmcc]

I have now found a wide range of stuff, including kilts and fabric, in Arsenal Football Club tartan, at www.internationaltartans.co.uk

They have a few other obscure tartans there as well. Apparently they design custom tartans and they designed that one. They have a few other soccer clubs and some US states as well.

There are several US state, national and district tartans I haven't seen before. The Florida tartan has too much white in it for my tastes. Gunnar and Barb T. may be interested in the Iceland tartan.

[BoldHighlander]

I have now found a wide range of stuff, including kilts and fabric, in Arsenal Football Club tartan, at www.internationaltartans.co.uk

Interesting site, however they make it sound like the Scottish Tartan Museum in North Carolina is now defunct!! (below)

The Scottish Tartans Society, including its branch and museum in North Carolina, which was at one time universally recognised as the unofficial 'authority' on tartans, is now defunct.

http://www.internationaltartans.co.uk/health-warning/

I think that'd be news to Matt!!!

Also:

Scots mercenaries were in great demand for their fighting prowess. Thus tartan cloth was not an uncommon sight in countries throughout Europe, and in many cases became part of local dress.
For example, during the Kalmar Wars between Sweden and Denmark, an army of 550 Scottish mercenaries passing through the Gubrandsval valley, in what is now Norway, in 1612 en route to Sweden in 1612, were routed by local farmers. Their plaids of tartan cloth became woven into the local ‘bunad’, a traditional costume which survives to this day. There are also tartans woven for women’s dresses in Sarna in Norway which are probably derived from tartans worn by Scottish soldiers who fought in Sinclair's expedition to Norway in 1738-40.

There is also a Dutch tartan, which is a Mackay tartan woven in the colours of the Dutch flag, which dates back to the 300 soldiers who fought in the Netherlands for Gustavus Adolphus in 1631.

http://www.internationaltartans.co.uk/national/

Okay, first the Sinclair "Raid"/Expedition was in 1612, *NOT* 1738-40. It was the failed expedition ambushed in Norway that they mention above:

The Scottish Expedition in Norway in 1612

Sinclair's Club of Otta - learning from the Battle of Kringen 1612

Also, they are wrong about the Dutch Mackay tartan. This tartan does *NOT* date back to the Thirty Years War, and is in fact of more recent origin woven in honor of the connection between the Scottish & Dutch Mackays. During the Thirty Years War the Mackay Regiment was described wearing a tartan that (color wise) corresponds to the dark green /blue & black Modern Mackay tartan seen today.

The Dutch MacKay is a tartan designed in 1965 by the late John Cargill, for and registered with the Scottish Tartan Authority, (formerly the Scottish Tartan Society), in honor of the significant roll of the “Dutch Mackays” in Clan and Dutch National History. There are in fact two Dutch tartans, the standard and a dress tartan which switches the thin orange line with an azure, a blue wide line with a white and a thin white line with a red. These tartans are based on the official Clan Mackay tartan and are in their National colors of orange, black, azure and white, with the above changes in the “dress” version.

They really need to get their facts straight