Clues to ancient invasion in DNA

[wvpiper]

Clues to ancient invasion in DNA

DNA may hold clues to an ancient movement from Ireland to Scotland
Scientific evidence of an ancient invasion of Scotland from Ireland may have been uncovered by DNA techniques. ............
Early historical sources recount how the Gaels came from Ireland about 500 AD and conquered the Picts in Argyll. ...............................

Scientists said the study was the first demonstration of a significant Irish genetics component in Scots' ancestry.

I don't mean to be obtuse, or argumentative, but isn't it already known that peoples moved back and forth? Didn't we already know that the Scoti came from Dalraida (Northern Ireland) Is this DNA evidence, that the Scottish Celts and Irish Celts are related, really any surprise?

[skauwt]

I don't mean to be obtuse, or argumentative, but isn't it already known that peoples moved back and forth? Didn't we already know that the Scoti came from Dalraida (Northern Ireland) Is this DNA evidence, that the Scottish Celts and Irish Celts are related, really any surprise?

yeah i agree with you that the scottish celts and irish celts are related considering the way they knew all the sea routes and where master seagoers kinda says it all really , and to just go on about the 5th century as if it was the only time these nations intermingled its been going on for a few thousand years if not alot longer and still to this day in some aspects ,
when you stand at Knockagh hill not far from newtownabbey ireland and look out into the distance this is what you see ....
portpatrick in scotland ......if i was a wee irishman ( like the future father in law ) and lived back then and saw that land over there id think to myself "i fancy popping over there to see whats what and who i can trade with and perhaps suss out these wild haired folk incase they decide to come over and see me sometime " then before you know a few generations later youve moved up the coast and taa daa intermingleing

[gilmore]

I don't mean to be obtuse, or argumentative, but isn't it already known that peoples moved back and forth? Didn't we already know that the Scoti came from Dalraida (Northern Ireland) Is this DNA evidence, that the Scottish Celts and Irish Celts are related, really any surprise?

As I read the story, what makes it newsworthy is the fourth sentence, "Scientists said the study was the first demonstration of a significant Irish genetics component in Scots' ancestry." (Emphasis added)

[wvpiper]

As I read the story, what makes it newsworthy is the fourth sentence, "Scientists said the study was the first demonstration of a significant Irish genetics component in Scots' ancestry." (Emphasis added)

Sorry, but I don't see it as newsworthy. It's common knowledge, proving it with DNA doesn't make it any more significant, in my eye.

[Rob]

Sorry, but I don't see it as newsworthy. It's common knowledge, proving it with DNA doesn't make it any more significant, in my eye.

The trouble is that much of what has been assumed to be "common knowledge" concerning migrations and origins has been shown to be myth.

For instance, it was "common knowledge" until the latter part of the 20th century that the Anglo-Saxons had driven all the Britons (Celts) out of what was to become England into what was to become Wales, thus leaving the English as being almost entirely descended from the Anglo-Saxon Invaders. However, this has been shown to be a myth, as firstly archaeology and then population genetics has conclusively shown that the present day English population is still predominently descended from the Britons (Celts).

It is therefore instructive to know for certain that the arrival of the Dalriada Scots from Ireland was definitely not a myth.

For anyone who is interested in the origins of the peoples of the British Isles, I can thoroughly recommend the book "The Origins of the British" by Professor Stephen Oppenheimer. Oppenheimer not only uses Y-chromosome and mtDNA markers to determine origins but he also approximately dates the migrations using Phylogeography and exact gene match techniques.

[slohairt]

I think the long-held opinion that the Angles, Saxons, and Jutes drove the native Britons to Wales, Cornwall, and southern Scotland was always a bit naive to begin with. I suspect that thinking was a product of 19th Century Anglo-Saxonism. Obviously the Anglo-Saxons merely established themselves as the ruling class. Much like the Franks in France and the Normans later in England's history.

[Rob]

I think the long-held opinion that the Angles, Saxons, and Jutes drove the native Britons to Wales, Cornwall, and southern Scotland was always a bit naive to begin with. I suspect that thinking was a product of 19th Century Anglo-Saxonism. Obviously the Anglo-Saxons merely established themselves as the ruling class. Much like the Franks in France and the Normans later in England's history.

Too true! However, there were still historians in the latter half of the 20th century who still believed the population replacement theory, and there are still Anglo-Saxon enthusiasts who insist that genetics has got it all wrong.

Another myth that population genetics has laid bare is the belief that the native Britons (Celts) were Iron Age invaders from Central Europe who displaced the earlier Bronze Age inhabitants. We now know that the ancestors of the Britons had been in Britain since soon after the last Ice Age and had mostly come from Northern Iberia. It was only the Celtic language that replaced the earlier (probably non-Indo-European) language at some time either during or before the Iron Age, not the Celts themselves. The British Celts were definitely not descended from the Continental Keltoi/Celtae referred to by the Greeks and the Romans respectively.

[Sketraw]

Too true! However, there were still historians in the latter half of the 20th century who still believed the population replacement theory, and there are still Anglo-Saxon enthusiasts who insist that genetics has got it all wrong.

Another myth that population genetics has laid bare is the belief that the native Britons (Celts) were Iron Age invaders from Central Europe who displaced the earlier Bronze Age inhabitants. We now know that the ancestors of the Britons had been in Britain since soon after the last Ice Age and had mostly come from Northern Iberia. It was only the Celtic language that replaced the earlier (probably non-Indo-European) language at some time either during or before the Iron Age, not the Celts themselves. The British Celts were definitely not descended from the Continental Keltoi/Celtae referred to by the Greeks and the Romans respectively.

Eureka! --- To a degree.... some have always spouted the p-Celtic and q-Celtic theory and that the original inhabitants of Northern Britain were p-Celtic, an earlier movement of Celts some 8,000 -9.000 years ago. I think their is no doubt that these New Stone Age people (old Stone Age pre-iceage) who populated Britain were of Iberian decent.

Their could be a case however for a later Celtic movement to Britain as the Romans advanced across mainland Europe pushing the Celts further and further into obscurity, with a sort of last stronghold if you like being Britain.

Have a look at this http://www.scotshistoryonline.co.uk/origin1.html an extract from a longer paper on the subject that I compiled a number of years ago now. It will save me a bit of typing.