St George`s day

[McClef]

Wales is of course proud to fly its own flags but the lack of a Welsh element within the Union Flag is a sore point with many in Wales.

It would be interesting to see what would happen with that flag if things go beyond devolution to independence. Interestingly St Patrick's cross is still included although most of Ireland is now a republic and the remaining 6 counties use the Red Hand of Ulster flag which is not included in the Union Flag either...

[Peter C.]

Sadly the cross of St George with the red hand Of Ulster is only an unofficial flag in Northern Ireland.

I would love to see the red dragon of Wales on a green background, right in the middle of the union flag.

Peter

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

The popularly waved Welsh flag (per fess argent and vert a dragon passant gules) is actually Henry Tudor's livery banner. The last flag flown over an independent Wales was quarterly one and four or a lion passant guardent gules; two and three gules a lion passant guardant or. The flag of St. David is sable overall a cross or.

One would have thought that since the Prince of Wales usually becomes the King of the United Kingdoms, it would not be necessary to add any subordinate fiefdom to his flag, or to the national flag.

[macwilkin]

Wales is of course proud to fly its own flags but the lack of a Welsh element within the Union Flag is a sore point with many in Wales.

It would be interesting to see what would happen with that flag if things go beyond devolution to independence. Interestingly St Patrick's cross is still included although most of Ireland is now a republic and the remaining 6 counties use the Red Hand of Ulster flag which is not included in the Union Flag either...

Actually, the Red Hand flag is no longer the "official" flag of Northern Ireland, although it is still quite popular. You do also see a number of folks who have adopted the St. Patrick's Cross as an alternate flag, and it is even displayed on the PSNI cap bagde:

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/Sr/sr2002/02002301.gif

The flag, according to some friends I know in NI, is becoming more common.

Regards,

Todd

[McClef]

One would have thought that since the Prince of Wales usually becomes the King of the United Kingdoms, it would not be necessary to add any subordinate fiefdom to his flag, or to the national flag.

The title Prince of Wales was originally given as a sop to the Welsh by the bugbear of both Wales and Scotland, Edward I Longshanks. His son had been born at Caernarfon and therefore on Welsh soil.

It is a title that is not given automatically at birth but must be conferred by the Monarch and Prince Charles (born 1948) was not created Prince of Wales until he was almost ten years of age.

Princes of Wales do not rule Wales as a fiefdom and most of them have spent very little time there or learned the language. Nor do they have any Constitutional part to play in Wales as such, though like other members of the Royal Family, they may act as representatives of the Monarch.

A female heir does not become "Princess of Wales" but "Heir Presumptive" so at such periods the title is dormant. The present Queen took her husband's title when he was created Duke of Edinburgh and still is Duchess of Edinburgh though this title is subsumed by her rank since her accession.

Wales as an entity was always recognised, though there was some dispute about the position of the County of Monmouthshire until the 1970s as it was claimed by both Wales and England.

So many would still claim that there is a case for Wales, whilst it is still one of the countries of the United Kingdom at least, to have a presence on the Union Flag.

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

So many would still claim that there is a case for Wales, whilst it is still one of the countries of the United Kingdom at least, to have a presence on the Union Flag.

Why? The Union Flag represents the joining of three, distinct, KINGDOMS, ie: England, Scotland, and Ireland.

In 1707, when the Union flag was adopted, it reflected the merging of two distinct kingdoms-- Scotland and England. Wales didn't figure in because it wasn't a kingdom, and someone would have to conjure up a lot of pre-medieval "history" to show that it ever was a kingdom in the normally understood sense of the word. The reality is that, in 1707, it had been more than 400 years since Edward I had defeated the Welsh. In 1801, with the Union of Ireland, Wales position still hadn't changed-- it wasn't a kingdom. Today the "Principality of Wales" is really only an uber-county; a geopolitical unit which provides for the effective administration of government in twelve counties, whilst taking reasonable care to maintain regional customs and culture.

If one follows the logic that "past kingdoms" are entitled to representation on the national flag, then how about Anglia and Mercia? Or Northumbria?

Wales has a regional flag, like Cornwall. I think it's great that many Welsh men and women can identify, culturally, with that flag. But should it be imposed upon the Union flag? In my opinion, and for the reasons cited above, no.

[McClef]

Why? The Union Flag represents the joining of three, distinct, KINGDOMS, ie: England, Scotland, and Ireland.

So because Wales wasn't a kingdom it deserves no recognition at all? Ireland was never an entire kingdom before it was annexed by England and most of it is no longer part of the Union so clearly it is out of date on more than one count.


[QUOTE=MacMillan of Rathdown;712163
In 1707, when the Union flag was adopted, it reflected the merging of two distinct kingdoms-- Scotland and England. Wales didn't figure in because it wasn't a kingdom, and someone would have to conjure up a lot of pre-medieval "history" to show that it ever was a kingdom in the normally understood sense of the word. The reality is that, in 1707, it had been more than 400 years since Edward I had defeated the Welsh. In 1801, with the Union of Ireland, Wales position still hadn't changed-- it wasn't a kingdom. Today the "Principality of Wales" is really only an uber-county; a geopolitical unit which provides for the effective administration of government in twelve counties, whilst taking reasonable care to maintain regional customs and culture. [/QUOTE]

As I said above, neither was Ireland. The flags were not changed on the Union of Crowns but on the union of the parliaments of England and Scotland in 1707 (the crowns were united in 1603) and then again with Ireland in 1801 (no union of Crowns at all). Wales has never been an "uber county" (a preposterous description that I have never seen used until you used it) and the "customs and culture" to which you refer were often subjected to attack and attempts at destruction when children were forced to learn English and use it at school and punished if they dared to use Welsh there.

If one follows the logic that "past kingdoms" are entitled to representation on the national flag, then how about Anglia and Mercia? Or Northumbria?

Wales has a regional flag, like Cornwall. I think it's great that many Welsh men and women can identify, culturally, with that flag. But should it be imposed upon the Union flag? In my opinion, and for the reasons cited above, no.

If people from Anglia or Mercia or Northumbria expressed such a wish then that is fine by me. But then there was no geopolitical entity known as England. You have a Union Flag and Virginia is represented on it both on the bars and stars. Should Alaska and Hawaii have been denied a star because they were not one of the original states? Each of your states has a flag yet this fact does not prevent cultural identification with the US flag because they are there on it.

The fact remains that on the Union Flag, Wales simply does not exist. It has never (with the possible exception of Monmouthshire) been part England nor seen the flag of St George as its own. Its people have the potential power to vote for independence like the people of Scotland do. Unlike the people of Scotland they cannot see a presence on the Union flag.

Wales, like Scotland, has a Capital City, not an "uber county" town.

[thanmuwa]

So because Wales wasn't a kingdom it deserves no recognition at all? Ireland was never an entire kingdom before it was annexed by England and most of it is no longer part of the Union so clearly it is out of date on more than one count.
...............

As I said above, neither was Ireland. The flags were not changed on the Union of Crowns but on the union of the parliaments of England and Scotland in 1707 (the crowns were united in 1603) and then again with Ireland in 1801 (no union of Crowns at all).

Wrong.
Ireland was a kingdom from 1542–1801, initially under Henry VIII. The king of England had previously held the title Lord of Ireland, given by the 1155 Laudabiliter papal bull, issued by Pope Adrian IV, the only English Pope (one did more than enough damage, no more thanks! ). The King in question (the first Lord of Ireland) was Henry II.
The Acts of Union that gave rise to the modern United Kingdom and the Union Flag were uniting three Kingdoms and three Crowns: Ireland, England and Scotland.

Whether it is correct for Ireland to still be represented on the Union Flag and especially on the Royal Standards, in a fashion that could be regarded as an ongoing claim, is another question entirely, and one that could be seen as just as provocative and political as Ireland's previous constitutional claims to Northern Ireland, so I for one am not getting into it.....

The fact remains that on the Union Flag, Wales simply does not exist. It has never (with the possible exception of Monmouthshire) been part England nor seen the flag of St George as its own. Its people have the potential power to vote for independence like the people of Scotland do. Unlike the people of Scotland they cannot see a presence on the Union flag.

Because, as MOR has pointed out, Wales is a Principality, of the Kingdom of England, not a kingdom in it's own right.

I doubt the Union Flag will be changed voluntarily any time soon, and I doubt if Wales will ever have a big enough voice to make it happen, so while Wales is still in the UK, I guess you are stuck with it .

[brianbalderstone]

I hope you're all clad in St. George's tartan today! What do you mean, you're not? LOL!

What you on about, I didn't know there was one.

[Colonel MacNeal]

Happy Saint George Day to all the SouthBrits!