Question for traditionalists

[Nighthawk]

Hope I'm being helpful here, not out of line. Know you asked Jock, and other Scots on the board, but read that you were also seeking how other's thought.

Ignore this if I misread.

I have five kilts in variations of Macdonald tartans. Two are the same, a USA Kilts semi- trad and a SportKilt in the generic Macdonald tartan.

I have 8 kilts in ancestral clan tartans, 4 Gordon variations, Scott, Gunn, Cameron, and Fraser.

I have Army, Navy, Leatherneck, Royal Air Force, and Firefighter Memorial tartan kilts to honor family service.

I have Caledonia and Isle of Skye district tartans.

I have a saffron and an Ireland's National tartan to represent the four Irish branches of my heritage.

I have two "cause" tartans - Antarctica and Warrior (purple for Domestic Violence prevention).

All my tartans have personal meaning for me.

Ron

Those are some great reasons! I was personally never concerned about the labels others put on me. I know what I am, and as the song says, if you don't like me, then leave me alone. I have similar tartans for similar reasons. Wolfe and saffron for the Irish side, Colorado tartan because I love my home (and it would take an act of the gods to get me to leave my own highlands!), Clergy to wear when I officiate weddings, Albannach because I'm a huge fan of the band (I know- it's frivolous. I ain't perfect!) and really, that's it for tartan kilts! I haven't gotten a MacLeod yet, though that it next on my list- it's from my grandmother on my fathers side. So it seems to me that unless that you're a Highlander living in Scotland, there are lots of very good reasons to wear different tartans. That thing to remember is that we as descendants of Scottish ancestors have an obligation to be respectful of the tradition, but are not bound by them.

[Jock Scot]

Those are some great reasons! I was personally never concerned about the labels others put on me. I know what I am, and as the song says, if you don't like me, then leave me alone. I have similar tartans for similar reasons. Wolfe and saffron for the Irish side, Colorado tartan because I love my home (and it would take an act of the gods to get me to leave my own highlands!), Clergy to wear when I officiate weddings, Albannach because I'm a huge fan of the band (I know- it's frivolous. I ain't perfect!) and really, that's it for tartan kilts! I haven't gotten a MacLeod yet, though that it next on my list- it's from my grandmother on my fathers side. So it seems to me that unless that you're a Highlander living in Scotland, there are lots of very good reasons to wear different tartans. That thing to remember is that we as descendants of Scottish ancestors have an obligation to be respectful of the tradition, but are not bound by them.

I say this with the greatest of respect and I hope you try to understand when I take issue with your last sentence. There are many Scots who feel that you(not you personally, necessarally!) are falling short of that "obligation to be respectful" you talk about, by wearing different clan tartans. I quite understand that you feel that you should not be bound by those obligations, and from your point of view, that's fair enough. Just don't expect some Scots to view it that way.

[Nighthawk]

I say this with the greatest of respect and I hope you try to understand when I take issue with your last sentence. There are many Scots who feel that you are falling short of that "obligation to be respecful" you talk about, by wearing different clan tartans. I quite understand that you feel that you should not be bound by those obligations, and from your point of view, that's fair enough. Just don't expect some Scots to view it that way.

Jock, my friend, I realize that very well. That's exactly why I won't wear any family or clan tartan that I don't have blood ties to. The only Scottish clan /family tartan I will wear is MacLeod. I'll wear my state tartan, I'll wear my Irish family tartan- but only one clan tartan. I realize that more than a few people will take issue with me on this- but tough. Not to put too fine a point on it...

[heilanner]

I say this with the greatest of respect and I hope you try to understand when I take issue with your last sentence. There are many Scots who feel that you are falling short of that "obligation to be respecful" you talk about, by wearing different clan tartans. I quite understand that you feel that you should not be bound by those obligations, and from your point of view, that's fair enough. Just don't expect some Scots to view it that way.

as a Scot i feel obliged to chip in here. 99% of Scots don't own a kilt. they hire them as and when they are needed - mostly for weddings, Burns suppers and for hogmany. kilt hire shops seldom stock more than 4 or 5 tartans, so people wear whatever happens to be available at the time.

if someone does ask about the kilt, the conversation goes along these lines; "That's a nice kilt, which tartan is it?", "Oh, thanks. I think it's a Baird", "Is it your own?", "No no, just rented", "Well you look very smart in it".

next to nobody in Scotland cares which tartan people wear because next to nobody in Scotland will ever own a kilt.

[Jock Scot]

Jock, my friend, I realize that very well. That's exactly why I won't wear any family or clan tartan that I don't have blood ties to. The only Scottish clan /family tartan I will wear is MacLeod. I'll wear my state tartan, I'll wear my Irish family tartan- but only one clan tartan. I realize that more than a few people will take issue with me on this- but tough. Not to put too fine a point on it...

Fair enough. It is a shame that you think that way,though.

[Nighthawk]

Fair enough. It is a shame that you think that way,though.

I grew up with a Scottish (protestant) grandmother and an Irish (Catholic) grandfather. No matter what I wore, one or the other got mad at me. They hated each other- Grandpa didn't want my mom to marry my dad, and Grandma did want my dad to marry my mom! I developed that attitude as a method of coping. And really, I'm as closed off as I sound. I just can't think of a more eloquent way of describing myself. Rex could... but I can't.

[Jaggy thistle]

I think heilanner is wrongI think perhaps half of Scotsmen own a kilt, they do not wear them often enough! Iwear a kilt every day and have started wearing cheap kilts for daily use , these are Makenzie as the first kilt I got was an ex HLI Makenzie kilt ,my good kilts are in the clan tartan( Black Douglas ) though I realise that the Douglas tartan is a relatively modern invention aqnd kilts would never be worn by the Douglases as they were from the Lowlands

[KFCarter]

I have no problem with Nighthawk's view... it's his and it works for him. I've come to a point for myself, though, that I do not share that view. I don't doubt what Heilanner says, either, about the current practice in Scotland as he sees it. But I'm not personally comfortable with adopting his view for my own approach to wearing the kilt. But that's just me.

We all come to the wearing of kilts from different, highly individualized places and ultimately will adopt practices that suit the reasons that have brought us to wear the kilt to begin with. For me, my interest in wearing the kilt, and in all things Scottish, is deeply embedded in my upbringing and is inextricably tied to a sense of family and history. Those are two subjects that, by their nature, elicit for me feelings of "respect" and "tradition" so I can't so easily dismiss the sensibilities expressed by Jock and others about those in Scotland who do still care about the traditions of kilt-wearing. I am, nevertheless, an American, not a Scot, and my own practices will also be informed by the practicalities and settings that surround me here. I just hope and try to stay reasonably connected to the traditions and choose (underscore "choose") to stay away from things that might needlessly offend the sense of propriety expressed by the "traditionalists." It's the choice that I'm comfortable with, but I'm also perfectly comfortable of living in a world surrounded by others who've made different choices.

[Jock Scot]

as a Scot i feel obliged to chip in here. 99% of Scots don't own a kilt. they hire them as and when they are needed - mostly for weddings, Burns suppers and for hogmany. kilt hire shops seldom stock more than 4 or 5 tartans, so people wear whatever happens to be available at the time.

if someone does ask about the kilt, the conversation goes along these lines; "That's a nice kilt, which tartan is it?", "Oh, thanks. I think it's a Baird", "Is it your own?", "No no, just rented", "Well you look very smart in it".

next to nobody in Scotland cares which tartan people wear because next to nobody in Scotland will ever own a kilt.

With the greatest of respect I am afraid I cannot agree with you on all of your post. I fully accept that many Scots do hire kilts, I fully accept that many Scots probably only know two or three tartans. However, I cannot agree with your "next to nobody" statements. Perhaps its because the Western Highlands are rather less cosmopolitan than Aberdeen, that our points of view differ?

[kypnkilt]

Fortunate for me, I can trace my Scottish linage back to the Ayr/Dumfries area back to the early 18th century. My family line went to Ireland and became shipbuilders and stone masons. Then immigrated to the US (North Carolina area) in the 1840's. My tartan (Crawford) is not that old, however, there is some family connection with the Boyds and Lindsays. The only information I can find concerning a clan is dated 1779 and has to do with military conscription to fight the "colonist".

I only wear the Crawford tartan. I am one of those that would feel uncomfortable wearing any other tartan not of my family' namesake. However, the US Army tartan is one I have been thinking about for awhile. I have no problem with others wearing a tartan that has no type of "connection" to themselves, however, I am the opposite concerning myself. My opinion is wear what you want, but I have nothing against those that are "traditionalist" and those that are not.