Interesting email from an Irish fellow about Irish kilts.

[sarge]

This has been an informative thread to read, and I bring it back as it is somewhat seasonal

[Mr. Kilt]

Thanks, sarge!
A slight update that might add to this thread...
I was conversing with a fellow "Gingles" who came from the same part of N. Ireland as my grandfather. He said that the family history was mainly Ulster-Scot and Dutch. Hopefully he'll be able to send me more information about them.

[The Thing]

I've just been reading through this thread, it makes me angry that Irish people from the Isle of Ireland have no idea of their own hertiage. The Leine and Brat most likely would have developed into the modern day kilt and the wearing of the Kilt in Ireland would have been as common for the Irish as it is for the Scots.
However in saying that, I feel there is a new cultural nationalism starting to take shape in Ireland, for many years the Celtic Tiger economy was the focus for many people as Ireland had never experienced such wealth for it's citizens. Now with it's decline and seeing what we have lost as well as gained Irish people are starting to look to their past with re-newed interest. The advent of talented Irish singers and dancers and the Irish Governments willingness to consider the past relationship with the Union of Great Britain is a positive one and shows signs of maturity and understanding.
I know a few of my friends who now have kilts, a generation ago unless they were pipers this wouldn't be the case, in time kilts on Irish streets will be a more fimilar sight. It only takes Irish people to have a positive understanding of their past for this to be so, now that we have gotten over the inferiority of ourselves, it is time to embrace the positives of Irishness once more.

[Paul]

Well, at least he remained polite... he is, for the most part, correct though. Irish nationals despise the 'Plastic Paddy' attitude in the US (hence why the world's largest St. Pat's festival is in NYC).

The only way I can claim to have an Irish heritage and still wear a kilt is that my family is from Northern Ireland (as is the gentleman who wrote that letter), and are of Ulster-Scots descent. Even taking THAT into account, kilts still aren't that common as most of the Scots that came over during the Ulster Plantation were from the lowlands, and therefore were more like to consider themselves British than kilt-wearing highlanders. That being said, the Ulster-Scots population in NI still have highland festivals with games, highland dancing, pipe bands, etc.

I doubt that many of them knew what "British" even meant as this was in 1600 - before the Union of Paliaments

[PGH]

I doubt that many of them knew what "British" even meant as this was in 1600 - before the Union of Paliaments

I agree with your sentiment, but as a bit of trivia the term "Great Britain" was coined by King James VI/I around 1604 after the crowns were united.

[M. A. C. Newsome]

I've just been reading through this thread, it makes me angry that Irish people from the Isle of Ireland have no idea of their own hertiage. The Leine and Brat most likely would have developed into the modern day kilt and the wearing of the Kilt in Ireland would have been as common for the Irish as it is for the Scots.

Is there any historical evidence to support this claim?

The brat and leine were the common clothing of the Gael in Scotland and Ireland prior to the sixteenth century. Starting at the end of the sixteenth century, the style evolved into feilidh-mor in the Scottish Highlands. During the seventeenth and much of the eighteenth century, the feilidh-mor was the common dress of the Highland male. Is there any evidence at all to suggest the feilidh-mor was also worn by the Irish during this period? No.

Over the course of the eighteenth century, the feilidh-mor further evolved in fashion to become the feilidh-beag, which by the end of the eighteenth century would become the tailored kilt. Again, this change of fashion occurred in the Scottish Highlands. Is there any evidence to suggest this was happening in Ireland, as well? No.

The nineteenth century continued to see the style of the kilt evolve from one that was made of four yards of cloth and box pleated to one that was made from eight yards of cloth and knife pleated. The style of pleating further changed from pleating to no pattern, to pleating to stripe, to pleating to the sett. By the time we get to the end of the nineteenth century, we have the kilt more or less as we know it today. Again, all this tronsformation of fashion took place in Scotland. Is there any evidence to suggest this occurring in Ireland? Again, no.

Let us please put an end of the myth of the kilt as an "Irish garment."

There is a reason why the kilt is referred to as "Highland Dress" or "Scottish National Dress" and not "Irish National Dress." It has nothing to do with Irish pride or overcoming a sense of inferiority or having a "positive understanding of Irish history." Rather it's simply about having a correct understanding of history based on the available evidence.

Why would it suggest that anyone have less pride in their Irish heritage if the Irish didn't historically wear kilts? In my opinion, the Irish should be proud of their history and heritage regardless of what their ancestors would or would not have worn. What does the kilt have to do with that?

[Paul]

I agree with your sentiment, but as a bit of trivia the term "Great Britain" was coined by King James VI/I around 1604 after the crowns were united.

True. But very few people in all of Scotland, England and Wales considered themselves British - as the term was never really used widely until the Scottish parliament was defunct.
The main reason for the plantations was religion... not nationality.

[triolamj]

Actually, the Irish did have a lot to do with the development of the kilt: Irish weavers manufactured the tartan fabric in various patterns and colors meant to please the Scottish eye. Nowadays we have trade tartans for all kinds of groups, but in olden days the Irish might not have worn tartan but they certainly sold it. Google the Clodagh tartan for more details.

Every 3 or 4 years I put on my presentation for the local Irish Association called "The Irish VS. The Kilt" and I have a lot of fun with it. Kilts aren't truly native to Ireland but they can be "a Scottish expression of Irish identity".

[Jon1975]

I'm going to agree with Phil here, as my family are from both areas as well. In point of fact from county Donegal, Ireland the mileage to Scotland is fairly minimal. Add to that the idea that we are all one in spirit no matter Irish, Scottish, English, or Welsh, when wearing the kilt we acknowledge our common celtic backgrounds and our common pride and heritage.

Since when are the English of Celtic background? I really have to disagree here.

[macwilkin]

Actually, the Irish did have a lot to do with the development of the kilt: Irish weavers manufactured the tartan fabric in various patterns and colors meant to please the Scottish eye. Nowadays we have trade tartans for all kinds of groups, but in olden days the Irish might not have worn tartan but they certainly sold it. Google the Clodagh tartan for more details.

Every 3 or 4 years I put on my presentation for the local Irish Association called "The Irish VS. The Kilt" and I have a lot of fun with it. Kilts aren't truly native to Ireland but they can be "a Scottish expression of Irish identity".

You might want to check the history of the Clodagh tartan; Matt Newsome has a very interesting article regarding it and other Irish tartans on his blog. Basically, its ancient Irish pedigree of supposedly being found in the Bog of Allen (similar to the Ulster tartan's history) had little evidence to support it.

Regards,

Todd