traditional vs. classic

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

I have always used 1839 as the dividing line between historical and traditional civilian Highland attire. Why 1839? Because that is the year the French perfected the photographic process and from that date we have accurate images-- snapshots, if you will-- of what all classes of society wore. We can see, day by day, the progress or evolution of all modes of attire.

So, by looking at photographs we can tell what people wore. Not only that, we can tell when and where certain items of clothing were worn. We can also tell when those items of clothing ceased to evolve in style, or became discarded by the overwhelming majority of people.

Looking at Highland attire in the century 1839-1939 we see commonality in items of day wear and evening wear. In other words we see a tradition of men wearing tweed during the day and finer cloth-- velvet and barathea-- in the evening. In this same period we also see the style-- that is the actual cut of the garment-- refining itself. In the period of 1919-1939, we see styles becoming "static", in other words they have evolved into something that is perceived as both aesthetic and functional. Trim details may vary, but the basic pattern is now pretty much set. And because this pattern of clothing does not vary, it is considered a "classic" style.

So, how to define traditional? I think that's fairly easy if one accepts that "traditional" refers to when things are worn. Day wear and evening wear have evolved into two different kinds of attire. Traditionally one wears more "rugged" clothes during the day, and more "refined" clothes in the evening. It is the style of these traditional clothes (and those that wear them) that determines whether they are "classic" or "contemporary".

In twenty-nine years we will be able to look back on two centuries of "modern" Highland attire. We will then be able to see what, if any, "contemporary" changes have taken root since 1939, and become accepted as "classic" Highland attire.

[wildrover]

It is considered bad form to wear a Che Guevara tee-shirt.

Fixed it for you .

I'm not sure that I can define it, but I think I can recognize it when I see it (apologies to Justice Stewart).

Classic Traditional Highland Daywear:

Modern Traditional Highland Daywear:

To summarize:

...

Modern traditional highland dress = what competing pipers wear/ what is readily available from retailers.

For me, the photos reinforced what MoR has been saying. The first shows men in various clothing. The second shows some poor sap in business uniform, plus a kilt, and it just simply looks wrong to me...like a costume, or as if someone with poor taste tried to put together a band uniform. Yes, it's the color choices that make all the difference. The third is, like the first, some guys in various clothing.

I figure the problem is lack of supplier selection, in response to a lack of consumer education. It's been discussed here before, definitely.

both aesthetic and functional.

I firmly believe you've got it right there. IMHO, "functional" does not include clothing that does not fit right, and "aesthetic" does not include anything pointlessly overdone...like wearing a "Price" () Charlie to a Highland games, or having Saltires, thistles, and lions rampant on every kilt accessory. The first photo I didn't quote above clearly shows aesthetics and functionality. The second, in contrast, is a joke. The third is back to aesthetics and functionality.

Day wear and evening wear have evolved into two different kinds of attire. Traditionally one wears more "rugged" clothes during the day, and more "refined" clothes in the evening. It is the style of these traditional clothes (and those that wear them) that determines whether they are "classic" or "contemporary".

In twenty-nine years we will be able to look back on two centuries of "modern" Highland attire. We will then be able to see what, if any, "contemporary" changes have taken root since 1939, and become accepted as "classic" Highland attire.

I'll get started right away on making a snowboarding hoodie "classic" daywear with a kilt .

FWIW, someone mentioned men's clothing as being largely an exercise in blending with the masses. I disagree. Appropriate clothing fits with the setting. Good clothing manages to be appropriate, with features that set it apart from everything else. Great clothing does the above, and fits properly. Excellent clothing is all the above, flatters the wearer, and does it without being ostentatious.

I think denim, for men and women, is rife with examples...there are Wranglers and Levis, then there are department store designer labels and mall designer labels, and then there are the "white labels"...you've never heard of them, the brand logo is tiny or nonexistent, they received a lot more thought to style and cut, and like quality kilt-related clothing, they're also rarely available at every cheap import table at the highland games.

'Scuse all the pants talk .

I think aesthetic functionality is timeless, and when I have the resources, I'll trade my hoodie for something more akin to photo #1.

-Sean

[MacLowlife]

Of the three photos, I expect the middle one shows what most would consider Traditional and/ or Classic, with the exception of the white hose. Granted, it is slightly boring, but (IMHO) is traditional and classic. Coming from a tradition of the navy blazer being slightly more acceptable than the tweed jacket, I would call it typical and supremely appropriate, though some might argue tweed would be more so for highland wear.

In the top photo, we see one gentleman (with the purple hose) with a jacket that, while interesting, is really neither traditional nor classic for the kind of daywear that usually involves a necktie. It might be fine for shooting, even the kind of shooting that usually involves a necktie, but it is not a traditional day dress jacket. If one were to sport such a jacket and tie with trousers, people would call it a "leisure jacket" recalling the 1970s disco era... Standing in proximity to the Duke of Rothesay does not make this man's dress any more traditional.

And then there is the gent in the white PC. I think it is kind of nice- and I am grateful he didn't go for contrast by wearing a black shirt with it, in the Traditional Classic Gangster style, but I spy a too-long kilt, a ruche tie, a daywear waistcoat and a summer tropical jacket. Even by adding "modern" you can't quite stretch this to traditional, can you really?

I believe the other man is the Chief of Clan McPherson. Do you notice he is not wearing a vest at all? He seems to be wearing a formal (in the American sense) shirt, but he is not wearing studs, as would be traditional...

[macwilkin]

In the top photo, we see one gentleman (with the purple hose) with a jacket that, while interesting, is really neither traditional nor classic for the kind of daywear that usually involves a necktie. It might be fine for shooting, even the kind of shooting that usually involves a necktie, but it is not a traditional day dress jacket. If one were to sport such a jacket and tie with trousers, people would call it a "leisure jacket" recalling the 1970s disco era... Standing in proximity to the Duke of Rothesay does not make this man's dress any more traditional.

That would be Lord Semple, and if I remember correctly. It is not a '70s "leisure jacket", but more akin to a sack suit of the mid 19th century. There are a number of photos of the Balmoral Ghillies in the mid 19th century wearing something similiar. I can't find a copy at the moment, but the picture I am thinking of is featured on the back cover of Bob Martin's All About Your Kilt.

It's certainly not from the 1970s though.

T.

[creagdhubh]

That would be Lord Semple, and if I remember correctly. It is not a '70s "leisure jacket", but more akin to a sack suit of the mid 19th century. There are a number of photos of the Balmoral Ghillies in the mid 19th century wearing something similiar. I can't find a copy at the moment, but the picture I am thinking of is featured on the back cover of Bob Martin's All About Your Kilt.

It's certainly not from the 1970s though.

T.

Lord Semphill, yes. Quite a smart outfit...as well as HRH Prince Charles, and the Duke of Argyll. I always admire the funky colored hose! I agree with you about the shooting aspect!

[davidlpope]

Of the three photos, I expect the middle one shows what most would consider Traditional and/ or Classic, with the exception of the white hose. Granted, it is slightly boring, but (IMHO) is traditional and classic. Coming from a tradition of the navy blazer being slightly more acceptable than the tweed jacket, I would call it typical and supremely appropriate, though some might argue tweed would be more so for highland wear.

I think you'll find that this particular look (white shirt, solid tie, black Argyll with chrome buttons, white hose) can only be dated back to when pipe bands started wearing this style and, accordingly, cheap foreign imports started flooding the market. A good natured challenge: who can produce a photo showing the earliest that this style was worn as day wear in Scotland? My bet is it's a competing piper in the late 80's, early 90's...IMHO definitely not classic, but de facto modern traditional day wear, because of its prevalence.

And then there is the gent in the white PC. I think it is kind of nice- and I am grateful he didn't go for contrast by wearing a black shirt with it, in the Traditional Classic Gangster style, but I spy a too-long kilt, a ruche tie, a daywear waistcoat and a summer tropical jacket. Even by adding "modern" you can't quite stretch this to traditional, can you really?

I'm certainly not advocating for this gentleman's "style" of dress either. Without sounding too rude, I can say that I find it very (personally) unappealing. I do contend that this particular outfit (with the exception of the white PC) is, in actual practice, what modern traditional dress looks like- a collection of the many ubiquitous accessories that flood the market.

I believe the other man is the Chief of Clan McPherson. Do you notice he is not wearing a vest at all? He seems to be wearing a formal (in the American sense) shirt, but he is not wearing studs, as would be traditional...

Yes, this is Cluny MacPherson. He is not wearing a vest with his regulation doublet, opting instead for a kilt belt. I've noticed a lack of studs with most Scottish evening wear. Not sure about that...

Cordially,

David