What my Mom says about belt loops on kilts

**auld argonian** · 18th February 10, 10:56 AM

Respectfully, this has got to be strictly an academic discussion. Some do and some don't...that's the way it is. I really hope that it's not getting into making a value judgement about who or what is AUTHENTIC and who or what isn't. Authenticity is nice but I fear that it gets too much airplay here and that "what's tasteful" and "what works for you" should be the prevailing attitude.

Best

AA

**Jock Scot** · 18th February 10, 10:56 AM

All the kilts that I have had close contact with have not had loops, so why do I wear a belt? Well ok, we are talking no waistcoat(no belt is usually worn with those anyway) here, so sometimes I may have lost a few pounds so the kilt may not fit as it might, I may be off to do some activity that requires a fair bit of movement, so a belt just ensures a bit of stability around the waist. Sometimes I wear a belt just because and sometimes I don't wear a belt because it does not please me to.

**wildrover** · 18th February 10, 11:32 AM

Huh...it seems like everything can be boiled down to this, someone correct me if I'm wrong.

"Wants" and modern trends aside...

A trad kilt shouldn't need a belt to stay up.

A belt shouldn't need to be within loops to stay in place over a trad kilt.

Neither should a sporran.

Correct?

**Jock Scot** · 18th February 10, 11:49 AM

Originally Posted by wildrover

Huh...it seems like everything can be boiled down to this, someone correct me if I'm wrong.

"Wants" and modern trends aside...

A trad kilt shouldn't need a belt to stay up.

A belt shouldn't need to be within loops to stay in place over a trad kilt.

Neither should a sporran.

Correct?

Correct. Provided the civilian kilt is properly fitted.

**Pleater** · 18th February 10, 04:11 PM

I make simple kilts for my own use - having started off with traditional knife pleats and sewn down fell they sort of evolved - as I remade them due to losing weight.

They have now become reverse Kingussie style, without a sewn down fell, the pleats are pressed into shape, some are sewn along the outer edge to keep the crease, and the top edge is sewn so as to fix the small pleats and to hold the large pleats so they don't curl outwards, and bound over with a narrow band.

Some of them, notably the DPM (camo) ones, have a strip of sturdy webbing placed along the back of the waistline and sewn under the waistband.

I place the belt loops one centre back, one each end of the small pleats and one at the end of the apron.

Having two loops at the back simply doesn't work for me as I do not put the waist band under tension, rather compression, to hold the under apron in place, so the centre back would just slide out from under the belt. There is a groove some two inches wide over my spine at waist level, so there is nothing to hold the kilt in place - I hardly ever carry my Finnish sheath knife there these days.

The ridge formed by the band helps the belt to hold the kilt in place.

To attach the loops I fold the top of the strip over the band to the inside and sew through all the layers of fabric just below the band - so the belt cannot ride over the band. I sew the lower edge of the loop to the lower edge of the webbing. If the loop has to be wider than the webbing I fold the loop back on itself so it is large enough for the belt to go through, but still firmly fixed to the webbing behind it.

Anne the Pleater :ootd:

**vorpallemur** · 18th February 10, 04:40 PM

Originally Posted by Jock Scot

I have seen many, possibly hundreds of kilts being worn like that, in the 1940's and '50's. I don't recall seeing belt loops. In this picture I don't think those are belt loops, but "keepers" on the belt, but I could be wrong.

I'm under the impression that many kilts have been made to use the full width of the fabric, selvage to selvage. Unless the wearer is quite tall, if the bottom is worn above the knee, that's going to give quite a high rise, even with narrow hand-woven fabrics. The advantages are that it's less work to make: you don't need a waistband to keep the top from coming apart, and if you're feeling thrifty, you can take it apart and remake it should your size change, or when it gets worn at the bottom edge.

For proper function, the kilt only needs to extend a half inch or so above the waist of the wearer.

**The Wizard of BC** · 18th February 10, 05:16 PM

Vorpallemur,

What you say about kilts being sewn using the entire width of the fabric is correct for 'some' very old military kilts. Not all were made that way and the practice died out prior to and during WWI.

You other statement about there needing half an inch or so above the waist is only correct on many very newly made kilts.
If the Kilt is a true Traditional Style it will be made to fit so that the top strap will cinch into the small indentation just at Kidney level and just under the ribs. There is then a 2" and sometimes a 4" 'rise' above the top strap.

This 'rise' has no or reversed taper to that found in the pleats.

Here is a pic of my Tewksbury Kilt.

As you can see at the level of the top strap, that is the smallest part of the kilt.
The pleats taper outward below the strap.
And they taper outward again above the strap.

This Kilt will fit perfectly just were it is supposed to. The Rise will come up, over the bottom of the ribs.
If I wear a belt with this kilt, the belt also cinches into the smallest part of my body. It cannot move up or down so doesn't need loops to keep it in place.

This Kilt has a 2" rise above the center of the top strap.

**vorpallemur** · 18th February 10, 06:49 PM

Originally Posted by The Wizard of BC

Vorpallemur,

Here is a pic of my Tewksbury Kilt.

What tartan is that?

**Steve Ashton** · 18th February 10, 07:06 PM

Highland Granite, Strome weight (16oz.) from Lochcarron.

Hand sewn by Barb Tewksbury.

**OC Richard** · 19th February 10, 01:43 AM

Originally Posted by Tobus

This whole discussion leads to the question: what good is the kilt belt doing?

If it's not meant to be worn through the belt loops, then it's not holding up the kilt. And I think most people agree that a kilt shouldn't need holding up in the first place if it's fitted/tapered properly to the natural waist and hips.

So the belt isn't supporting the kilt at all. For most people, it's not supporting a dirk or other accoutrements either. If wearing a sporran with its own belt or chain, the kilt belt is not supporting the sporran. What good is it? Decoration only?

It was pointed out to me that every waistbelt seen in The Highlanders Of Scotland is supporting a dirk. No dirk, no waistbelt.

These waistbelts are either worn over the jacket, or under the jacket but over the waistcoat/vest. Never under the waistcoat.

The only exception to the above is a man without jacket, wearing a waistbelt over his waistcoat/vest, without a dirk visible.

I myself never wear a waistbelt when wearing a vest/waistcoat, and only rarely when wearing a kilt jacket without waistcoat. If it can't be seen it only adds bulk. When I do wear a waistbelt is on the rare occasions that I'm wearing neither jacket nor waistcoat/vest: then it's for the dressier look that the waistbelt buckle provides.