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  1. #1
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    Quote Originally Posted by mull View Post
    So on to the next question.

    In reviewing the pictures I notice Archibald MacIntosh is wearing a vest that appears more like a sleeveless coat. It looks longer than the other vests and has piping on the lower pockets, almost tashlike. He is also wearing his belt over it like it was a doublet. The buttons on it also seem to go off up the right side instead of being centered.


    Can anyone tell me more about this garment? Am I just looking at it too hard?

    Thanks,
    Joe
    Good observations and I confess, the type of detail I often overlook. My first thought is this mostly represents a late 18th century/early 19th century waistcoat. The thing that strikes me most about this is that it has a lower or more open collar than I associate with that era of waistcoat. The pocket flaps are certainly consistent with that type of waistcoat. I see what you are saying about them being "tache like", but I (rightly or wrongly) would reserve the term tache to refer to a pocket/flap that hung below the waistline, not a pocket flap like this. I absolutely agree with you that this is longer and more like a "sleeeveles coat" than what we would think of as a vest (in American parlance, anyway) that certainly became standard by the mid-19th century.

    Now we come to the "buttons on it also seem to go off up the right side instead of being centered" observation you made, which is an excellent pick-up IMHO. This is one of those areas that I believe MacLeay deviated from the actual "picture" if you follow my drift. I suppose I first must acknowledge that these prints are mostly accepted to be the next best things to actual photographs and there's no denying that he paid attention to an immense amount of detail on the whole. I think that what we are really seeing is indeed a waistcoat that buttoned close to the neck and we are left with somewhat of an illusion by how the waistcoat seems to be "done-up" but MacLeay still drew the buttons in place as it was not buttoned up completely. I could be totally wrong but I'm not sure how else to logically explain what we see.

    I surmise that the odd pair of hose with "lines" that Richard pointed out above is a similarly less than accurate portrayal of that particular gent's hose. I know for some this is tantamout to heresy, but I think all artists take a little license now and again.
    Ken

    "The best things written about the bagpipe are written on five lines of the great staff" - Pipe Major Donald MacLeod, MBE

  2. #2
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    Gentlemen, gentlemen, gentlemen, please get your heads out of the clouds! These pictures, interesting though they may be, bare no relation whatsoever to what was worn on a day to day basis. These pictures are fantasy, a dream and dare I say it, lies. Somewhere, lost I expect, there is a picture of me in my youth, sat on a horse in a damned uncomfortable uniform with sword drawn. Now if, in a hundred years time that picture resurfaces and some one looks at it and says gosh "this is the British Army going into action in 1960, this is proof of how they did it and what they wore". Wrong conclusions could be drawn, just as I fear some are doing with those kilted pictures.

    Most certainly enjoy the pictures, most certainly glean what information from the pictures that you can about aspects of clothing etc.,but please don't fall into the trap of thinking that any Scot wore that as normal dress.

    Those outfits were the very best that very few could muster, plus a large dose of artistic licence, for a very specific event. A pose. Just like the fellow on a horse in his best uniform with his sword.
    Last edited by Jock Scot; 7th March 10 at 02:36 AM. Reason: found my glasses

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jock Scot View Post
    Gentlemen, gentlemen, gentlemen, please get your heads out of the clouds! These pictures, interesting though they may be, bare no relation whatsoever to what was worn on a day to day basis. These pictures are fantasy, a dream and dare I say it, lies. Somewhere, lost I expect, there is a picture of me in my youth, sat on a horse in a damned uncomfortable uniform with sword drawn. Now if, in a hundred years time that picture resurfaces and some one looks at it and says gosh "this is the British Army going into action in 1960, this is proof of how they did it and what they wore". Wrong conclusions could be drawn, just as I fear some are doing with those kilted pictures.

    Most certainly enjoy the pictures, most certainly glean what information from the pictures that you can about aspects of clothing etc.,but please don't fall into the trap of thinking that any Scot wore that as normal dress.

    Those outfits were the very best that very few could muster, plus a large dose of artistic licence, for a very specific event. A pose. Just like the fellow on a horse in his best uniform with his sword.
    The one exception Jock would be William Duff, a games-watcher for the Duke of Athole (below):



    By all accounts that I've come across this is how he actually looked in his day to day activities, however I've read he was even more rather unkempt in appearance (MacLeay was suppose to have "tidied up" his appearance in the portrait). The term generally used in describing Duff was "picturesque"

    Here's a link about artist Kenneth MacLeay & his portraits for anyone interested.
    [SIZE="2"][FONT="Georgia"][COLOR="DarkGreen"][B][I]T. E. ("TERRY") HOLMES[/I][/B][/COLOR][/FONT][/SIZE]
    [SIZE="1"][FONT="Georgia"][COLOR="DarkGreen"][B][I]proud descendant of the McReynolds/MacRanalds of Ulster & Keppoch, Somerled & Robert the Bruce.[/SIZE]
    [SIZE="1"]"Ah, here comes the Bold Highlander. No @rse in his breeks but too proud to tug his forelock..." Rob Roy (1995)[/I][/B][/COLOR][/FONT][/SIZE]

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoldHighlander View Post
    Here's a link about artist Kenneth MacLeay & his portraits for anyone interested.
    Also be sure to check out this link for details on the subjects in the paintings.
    [SIZE="2"][FONT="Georgia"][COLOR="DarkGreen"][B][I]T. E. ("TERRY") HOLMES[/I][/B][/COLOR][/FONT][/SIZE]
    [SIZE="1"][FONT="Georgia"][COLOR="DarkGreen"][B][I]proud descendant of the McReynolds/MacRanalds of Ulster & Keppoch, Somerled & Robert the Bruce.[/SIZE]
    [SIZE="1"]"Ah, here comes the Bold Highlander. No @rse in his breeks but too proud to tug his forelock..." Rob Roy (1995)[/I][/B][/COLOR][/FONT][/SIZE]

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoldHighlander View Post
    The one exception Jock would be William Duff, a games-watcher for the Duke of Athole (below):



    By all accounts that I've come across this is how he actually looked in his day to day activities, however I've read he was even more rather unkempt in appearance (MacLeay was suppose to have "tidied up" his appearance in the portrait). The term generally used in describing Duff was "picturesque"

    Here's a link about artist Kenneth MacLeay & his portraits for anyone interested.
    OH NO!!!! This wonderful gentleman is part of the dream! He may well have been dressed something like that when the Duke, or Queen Victoria were about on the estate. Any other time? I doubt it very much, in fact I just don't believe it. Even today stalkers, game keepers, ghillies wear "Estate Tweeds", but only on important days, like a meeting with the Laird, taking a guest out on the hill stalking, the Lairds brother may be fishing today and so on. Make no mistake they view "their" tweed with great pride and when The "Estate" is on public show the tweed comes out. Even if these men are at some event, say a "Game fair", near London the "tweed" will be worn and worn well and with considerable pride.

    MAKE NO MISTAKE! Those tweeds are not worn all the time! Just like those kilts, smart gold watch chains and all the rest of the fantasy dream world that Victorian tourist propaganda and astute commercially minded artists were able to dream up.
    Last edited by Jock Scot; 7th March 10 at 04:01 AM.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jock Scot View Post
    OH NO!!!! This wonderful gentleman is part of the dream! He may well have been dressed something like that when the Duke, or Queen Victoria were about on the estate. Any other time? I doubt it very much, in fact I just don't believe it. Even today stalkers, game keepers, ghillies wear "Estate Tweeds", but only on important days, like a meeting with the Laird, taking a guest out on the hill stalking, the Lairds brother may be fishing today and so on. Make no mistake they view "their" tweed with great pride and when The "Estate" is on public show the tweed comes out. Even if these men are at some event, say a "Game fair", near London the "tweed" will be worn and worn well and with considerable pride.

    MAKE NO MISTAKE! Those tweeds are not worn all the time! Just like those kilts, smart gold watch chains and all the rest of the fantasy dream world that Victorian tourist propaganda were able to dream up.
    Jock, I understand what your saying, and for the most part agree, however all I can go by is what those who knew Mr. Duff say, that this is how he appeared (also keep in mind it is said he was much more unkempt in appearance & that MacLeay "tidied up" him up in the portrait). We can chose to believe those who knew him or not, the fact was neither you nor I were there to say otherwise.
    [SIZE="2"][FONT="Georgia"][COLOR="DarkGreen"][B][I]T. E. ("TERRY") HOLMES[/I][/B][/COLOR][/FONT][/SIZE]
    [SIZE="1"][FONT="Georgia"][COLOR="DarkGreen"][B][I]proud descendant of the McReynolds/MacRanalds of Ulster & Keppoch, Somerled & Robert the Bruce.[/SIZE]
    [SIZE="1"]"Ah, here comes the Bold Highlander. No @rse in his breeks but too proud to tug his forelock..." Rob Roy (1995)[/I][/B][/COLOR][/FONT][/SIZE]

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoldHighlander View Post
    Jock, I understand what your saying, and for the most part agree, however all I can go by is what those who knew Mr. Duff say, that this is how he appeared (also keep in mind it is said he was much more unkempt in appearance & that MacLeay "tidied up" him up in the portrait). We can chose to believe those who knew him or not, the fact was neither you nor I were there to say otherwise.
    With the gretest of respect, I fear, you are grasping at straws to keep your dream alive. Yes I quite believe that this gentleman dressed that way(smartened up in the picture we know) when he had too. Just like his modern counterparts do today and just like today it would be a grave mistake to believe that would be normal everday attire.

    For example, if you came to stalk deer here, you would be met by the stalker and taken out on the hill, clad in his Estate Tweed, you would see other people around the place clad in Estate tweed and if you were here for several days that is what you will see. The Estate is on public show as YOU are a guest here. The day you leave for home believing everyone goes about wearing Estate tweed all the time and how charming and traditional it all is, the chaps will be dressed in, these days, realtree gortex something or others, jeans,ex MOD coats etc.. They are part of selling you that dream. Even these days!

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jock Scot View Post
    With the gretest of respect, I fear, you are grasping at straws to keep your dream alive.
    Whatever...

    Again Jock, I understand what your saying, but all I can go by is what eyewitnesses wrote about the man....I'm going to let it drop because I feel like I'm beating my head in the wall on the subject

    One question I have for everyone though: is it just me or would'nt this thread, given the subject, be better served in the Historical Highland Attire section rather than Traditional Highland Dress section?
    [SIZE="2"][FONT="Georgia"][COLOR="DarkGreen"][B][I]T. E. ("TERRY") HOLMES[/I][/B][/COLOR][/FONT][/SIZE]
    [SIZE="1"][FONT="Georgia"][COLOR="DarkGreen"][B][I]proud descendant of the McReynolds/MacRanalds of Ulster & Keppoch, Somerled & Robert the Bruce.[/SIZE]
    [SIZE="1"]"Ah, here comes the Bold Highlander. No @rse in his breeks but too proud to tug his forelock..." Rob Roy (1995)[/I][/B][/COLOR][/FONT][/SIZE]

  9. #9
    M. A. C. Newsome is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by HarborSpringsPiper View Post
    I surmise that the odd pair of hose with "lines" that Richard pointed out above is a similarly less than accurate portrayal of that particular gent's hose. I know for some this is tantamout to heresy, but I think all artists take a little license now and again.
    Actually, I have seen hose knit this way. Now, whether the knitter in this case was inpsired by this historic portrait, or whether the portrait accurately depicts the hose being worn, are entirely seperate matters.

    But my point is that it is very possible to knit hose in this style, so there is no reason to assume that the artist was accurately depicting what he saw. After all, you can look at the other portraits and see evidence that MacLeay was certainly capable of accurately depicting tartan and diced hose.


  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by M. A. C. Newsome View Post
    Actually, I have seen hose knit this way. Now, whether the knitter in this case was inpsired by this historic portrait, or whether the portrait accurately depicts the hose being worn, are entirely seperate matters.

    But my point is that it is very possible to knit hose in this style, so there is no reason to assume that the artist was accurately depicting what he saw. After all, you can look at the other portraits and see evidence that MacLeay was certainly capable of accurately depicting tartan and diced hose.
    I went back and enlarged that print of MacNaghton and they actually appear to be tartan hose and not just lines as was initially suggested. See what you think.
    Ken

    "The best things written about the bagpipe are written on five lines of the great staff" - Pipe Major Donald MacLeod, MBE

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