How important is the Declaration of Arbroath..

[Tony]

Speaking only for myself....
I was never taught about the Declaration of Arbroath in my first 15 years in Glasgow.
I don't think it even entered my consciousness until I was researching the American Declaration of Independence.

[Dixiecat]

As I tell my students, the word "Revolution" is a bit of a misnomer, as it was in fact, America's first Civil War

While discussing the incidents that precipitated the War of Independence, my American friend was taken aback at my knowledge and commented that 'how does a Canadian know so much about us'. She was even more taken aback when I replied that we were actually discussing British history and the consequences of the War were just as far reaching on the British side.

[macwilkin]

While discussing the incidents that precipitated the War of Independence, my American friend was taken aback at my knowledge and commented that 'how does a Canadian know so much about us'. She was even more taken aback when I replied that we were actually discussing British history and the consequences of the War were just as far reaching on the British side.

T.

[ThistleDown]

My hearty congratulations to all of us: Todd, Mark, David, Dixiecat and all others. This is one of those rare threads wherein we are constantly adding to each other's knowledge base without dissension and with true understanding of the nature of recorded history. I think the view from two side of the Atlantic and from two countries on each side has been superb.

Rex (too)

[MacBean]

I just wanted to ..urge that a clear distinction be made between the Scots Highlanders and the Scots-Irish/Ulster Scots/ Irish Presbyterians/ Northern Dissenters during the Revolution, at least in North Carolina.

The Scots Highlanders were overwhelmingly Loyalists.

Yes, I've read this too, but remain somewhat unconvinced, in part, because not all Highlanders were Catholic. Clan Chattan (MacKintosh, MacPherson, MacBean, MacQueen, Farquarson, and some of Davidson, Shaw, MacLean) were Highlanders but are recorded as being Episcopalean (Protestant with bishops, but not Presbyterian or Anglican). I am aware of several branches of the MacBean group who fought in the Revolution, and nearly all on the side of the Patriots. Some were Ulster Scots for sure, meaning that living near Ft.George after the Jacobite rebellions was uncomfortable, so they left for the Plantations (or perhaps there were other reasons, but there are precious few left in Scotland and an abundance of Beans in the USA).

[macwilkin]

Yes, I've read this too, but remain somewhat unconvinced, in part, because not all Highlanders were Catholic. Clan Chattan (MacKintosh, MacPherson, MacBean, MacQueen, Farquarson, and some of Davidson, Shaw, MacLean) were Highlanders but are recorded as being Episcopalean (Protestant with bishops, but not Presbyterian or Anglican). I am aware of several branches of the MacBean group who fought in the Revolution, and nearly all on the side of the Patriots. Some were Ulster Scots for sure, meaning that living near Ft.George after the Jacobite rebellions was uncomfortable, so they left for the Plantations (or perhaps there were other reasons, but there are precious few left in Scotland and an abundance of Beans in the USA).

Episcopalians are Anglicans -- Believe me, I know, because I am one. The Scottish & American Episcopal Churches are part of the Anglican Communion, and it was three Scottish "non-juroring" Bishops -- Petrie, Skinner and Kilgour -- that consecrated the first American Bishop -- Seabury -- after the Revolution in Aberdeen in 1784. Besides, it's a bit of a simplification to say Episcopalians are simply "Protestants with Bishops" -- however, I can address that inaccuracy in a PM, as it might violate forum rules.

Were there exceptions? Sure -- Hugh Mercer being the most famous example of a pro-Patriot Jacobite -- but he was an exception. David's comments are correct from a historian's POV. Remember that Episcopalians and Presbyterians did not get along just because they were Protestant; for many years, the Episcopalians in Scotland were persecuted along with their RC neighbours because the Episcopal Church was not the established church, as was the C. of E. -- the Kirk was Presbyterian. As a result, many Episcopalians openly sided with the Jacobites.

I would recommend Dr. Duane Meyer's The Highland Scots of North Carolina for an excellent study of why the majority of Highlanders sided with the Loyalists or tried to remain neutral. Fernec Szasz's Scots in the North American West 1790-1917, Colin Calloway's White People, Highlanders and Indians and James Leyburn's The Scotch-Irish: a Social History are also highly recommended reading for this subject.

T.

[davidlpope]

Yes, I've read this too, but remain somewhat unconvinced, in part, because not all Highlanders were Catholic. Clan Chattan (MacKintosh, MacPherson, MacBean, MacQueen, Farquarson, and some of Davidson, Shaw, MacLean) were Highlanders but are recorded as being Episcopalean (Protestant with bishops, but not Presbyterian or Anglican). I am aware of several branches of the MacBean group who fought in the Revolution, and nearly all on the side of the Patriots. Some were Ulster Scots for sure, meaning that living near Ft.George after the Jacobite rebellions was uncomfortable, so they left for the Plantations (or perhaps there were other reasons, but there are precious few left in Scotland and an abundance of Beans in the USA).

Fair enough, since all generalities at some point fail.

One caveat, not sure if this is your method- using surnames as a proxy for Highlander/ Lowlander/ Ulster Scots identity can be dicey, unless you know the particular history for any individual.

That being said, one comparison I've made is based on the prevalence of Gaelic-derived "Highland" surnames of the roster of Loyalists and the prevalence of non-Highland surnames of the roster "Patriots" at the Battle of Moore's Creek Bridge. I'd be a little hesitant to use this a sole proxy, without the contemporary accounts that the Loyalists were wearing kilts, playing bagpipes, giving commands in the Gaelic, etc. that are all indicative of native Highland identity, while none of this was true of the Continentals.

The rosters are available from this publisher:
http://www.loyalistsandpatriots.com/...-0-9626172-2-9
http://www.loyalistsandpatriots.com/...-0-9626172-3-7

Cordially,

David

[MacBean]

Fair enough, both responses. I think everyone would agree that Highlanders did not fight on the Patriot side in organized Highlander groups, but that in some cases, as individuals, they certainly did.

Many thanks for the references by the way. I'm amazed at how much one can read about the Revolution in the South and still find each book new and interesting.

[Foxgun Tom]

"The spirit of the Declaration of Arbroath (6 April 1320) abides today, defiantly resisting any tyranny that would disarm, disperse and despoil proud people of just morals, determined to keep the means of protecting their families and way of life close at hand."

The above is a quote! I copied ages ago I can't remember when or where from?. It may well have been written by one of our American cousins? who-ever it was I'm grateful, its a modern view and sentiment I also share!!

As a native Scot, lucky enough to reside in the land of my birth, I and many others still see "THE DECLARATION OF ARBROATH" as an important historical and unique symbol of our nationhood, it proudly declares that if the sovereign is unable to carry out the duties to the nation and its people, we! the people have the right to remove him (democracy in its infancy and in the making) eg:

"Yet if he should give up what he has begun, and agree to make us or our kingdom subject to the King of England or the English, we should exert ourselves at once to drive him out as our enemy and a subverter of his own rights and ours, and make some other man who was well able to defend us our King;"

The other significant section of the delaration that facinates a lot of Scots pertains to our origins? eg:

"Most Holy Father and Lord, we know and from the chronicles and books of the ancients we find that among other famous nations our own, the Scots, has been graced with widespread renown. They journeyed from Greater Scythia by way of the Tyrrhenian Sea and the Pillars of Hercules, and dwelt for a long course of time in Spain among the most savage tribes, but nowhere could they be subdued by any race, however barbarous. Thence they came, twelve hundred years after the people of Israel crossed the Red Sea, to their home in the west where they still live today. The Britons they first drove out, the Picts they utterly destroyed, and, even though very often assailed by the Norwegians, the Danes and the English, they took possession of that home with many victories and untold efforts; and, as the historians of old time bear witness, they have held it free of all bondage ever since. In their kingdom there have reigned one hundred and thirteen kings of their own royal stock, the line unbroken a single foreigner. The high qualities and deserts of these people, were they not otherwise manifest, gain glory enough from this: that the King of kings and Lord of lords, our Lord Jesus Christ, after His Passion and Resurrection, called them, even though settled in the uttermost parts of the earth, almost the first to His most holy faith. Nor would He have them confirmed in that faith by merely anyone but by the first of His Apostles — by calling, though second or third in rank — the most gentle Saint Andrew, the Blessed Peter's brother, and desired him to keep them under his protection as their patron forever."

Tom

[ThistleDown]

Yes, I've read this too, but remain somewhat unconvinced, in part, because not all Highlanders were Catholic. Clan Chattan (MacKintosh, MacPherson, MacBean, MacQueen, Farquarson, and some of Davidson, Shaw, MacLean) were Highlanders but are recorded as being Episcopalean (Protestant with bishops, but not Presbyterian or Anglican). I am aware of several branches of the MacBean group who fought in the Revolution, and nearly all on the side of the Patriots. Some were Ulster Scots for sure, meaning that living near Ft.George after the Jacobite rebellions was uncomfortable, so they left for the Plantations (or perhaps there were other reasons, but there are precious few left in Scotland and an abundance of Beans in the USA).

Sorry, Mark, but I don't think that any Highland Scots can be included, in numbers, in your last. That is, that by the 18C there was little or no connection between Highland and Irish Scots. I cannot speak to your D of I point with any certainlty, as I cannot speak to other things related to the D of I (US) that has -- strangely (?) -- become such an important part of this thread. I can confirm, however, that within the Clanchattan the majority of folk in the 18C were Episcopalian. I don't know of any basis for your assertion that those who lived near Fort George after 1745 chose to emigrate (presumably because of their religion, or why otherwise would these facts be related?) and to become in the process Ulster Scots.

From Petty, Strathdearn, Strathnairn and the Upper Reaches of the Strathspey -- in the decades before 1776 -- many did leave, but in the main they left for the industrial sites of the south of Scotland and England or as relatively wealthy emigrees to the Americas and elsewhere. It is not recorded that they left in numbers for Ireland. In plainer words, there were no forced clearances in Clanchattan.

Are we confusing Highland Scots with Ulster Scots here?. I assure you, they are far from being the same beings in Scotland.