"Cookie Cutter" Pipe Band Dress

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

Could someone point out what band uniforms have to do with traditional Highland attire? Seems to me this should be in the Celtic Music forum with all the other piper/band stuff.

[OC Richard]

Could someone point out what band uniforms have to do with traditional Highland attire?

Surely you jest!

In what way is modern pipe band dress not traditional Highland dress?

Just about everything that modern pipe bands wear is on display in The Highlanders Of Scotland, thus dating to the 1860s, unless it be the specific design of a cap badge, or other minutiae.

Or does 150 years of use not make something "traditional"?

Modern pipe band dress consists of a Glengarry, Argyll jacket, kilt, sporran, solid coloured hose, and ghillies, all of which are seen in The Highlanders Of Scotland.

True that sporran designs have evolved, and that the modern "day", "evening", and "hunting" sporrans don't appear in The Highlanders Of Scotland. But all three are seen by the 1920's, giving them nearly a century of use.

And hose then didn't have thick turnovers, a rather small matter in the overall costume, and something a casual observer might not even notice.

Anyhow, back to band tartans, I just looked through the 2007 programme and there are fewer bands wearing Royal Stuart and more bands wearing bespoke/custom-made tartans.

Band tartans tend to change rather slowly though, because it's tremendously expensive for a band to change, and bands tend to wear the same tartan for many decades.

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

Surely you jest!

Not really. There is a world of difference between the band uniforms you are talking about and everyday civilian attire. It seems to me, since you are referencing The Highlanders of Scotland that this thread may more properly belong in "Historical Attire" or, since it is about band uniforms it might be better placed in the "Celtic Music" forum.

To my mind band uniforms (or costumes as you have characterized them) have nothing to do with present day traditional civilian attire. People don't dress like they are in a pipe band when attending a wedding, or going to dinner with their wife to cite but two examples. With very few exceptions (this thread being one of them) the topics covered on this forum generally concern themselves with what might best be termed "ordinary" Highland attire as opposed to military uniforms or band wear.

In no way do I wish to demean your obvious knowledge about piping, pipe music, pipe bands, or anything else of which you may have an informed opinion. Whether I agree or not with your views on the appropriateness of posting music-related threads on this particular forum is beside the point. I just don't see how a thread on "cookie cutter pipe bands" advances the discussion of present day Highland attire.

[OC Richard]

To my mind band uniforms (or costumes as you have characterized them) have nothing to do with present day traditional civilian attire. People don't dress like they are in a pipe band when attending a wedding, or going to dinner with their wife to cite but two examples.

I beg to differ, as on these very forums there have been quite a large number of people posting photos of men in kilts attending weddings and other functions wearing black argyll jackets, white hose, ghillies, and the sorts of sporrans popular amongst pipe bands today (evening, day, and hunting).

Pop a glengarry on their head and a set of pipes in their hand and they could join in with most pipe bands and no one would notice. (And a few pipe bands do still wear balmorals, though they're considered somewhat old fashioned nowadays, due to their being so popular amongst pipe bands in the 1970s.)

Now, the question of whether this style of dress ought to be worn at weddings and other functions is another matter.

The question of what makes something "historical" as opposed to "traditional" is a difficult one to answer, but to me the difference between the two terms is continuity of use. So, the Great Kilt strikes me as historical, as it fell out of favour for nearly two centuries before undergoing a revival in recent times. Ghillie brogues, kilt jackets, Glengarries, and the rest of modern pipe band kit are traditional because there has been an unbroken lineage of use from their first appearance down to the present. They're all to be seen in The Highlanders of Scotland, in a vast number of Victorian and Edwardian photos, and in catalogues of Highland Dress makers througout the 1920s through the 1950s to today.

I didn't always realise this myself. When pipe bands and others began wearing black Argyll jackets around 1980 they struck me as novel. They combined the cut of a tweed Argyll day jacket and the fabric and buttons of a Prince Charlie. I thought of them as something new concocted to meet the needs of pipe bands, who were at that time abandoning the way they used to dress, which was either in full military style dress, civilian Evening Dress (complete with tartan hose and buckled shoes), or civilian Day Dress. At that time, in the late 1970's, many pipe bands, wanting something dressier than Day Dress but more practical than Evening Dress, were going to an odd concoction: Balmoral, Prince Charlie, long necktie, Evening sporran, bulky hand knit Aran hose, and ghillies. But by the mid-1980s the black Argyll swept away all in its path.

Well then I started seeing the occasional photo of a band or individual wearing black Argyll jackets in the 1930s etc. They appear in Highland Dress catalogues from the 1930s but only as dress for boys. A Highland Dress catalogue I have from the 1950s mentions them but does not list them. They appear to have no name for it but rather describe it.

Then jackets very much like it are to be seen in The Highlanders of Scotland, making me realise that they had always been around, but not very popular.

So even the black Argyll jacket, the universal modern pipe band look, goes back to the mid 19th century at least.

Anyhow, back to the subject of "cookie cutter" tartans, a comparison of the tartans worn at the 2007 and 2004 World Pipe Band Championships shows a huge increase in the use of bespoke/custom tartans (by bands or other institutions), trade tartans, and district tartans, and a decrease in tartans such as Royal Stuart.

Tartans appearing in 2007 which do not appear in 2004:

Monarch of the Glen
Scottish National
Scotland Forever
Spirit of Lanarkshire
Alvi
City of Rome
City of Brechin
Connemara
Niagra District
Ross and Cromarty
Roxburgh
Toronto Fire
Strathclyde Fire and Rescue
Drumalig (the bespoke tartan recently adopted by Field Marshal Montgomery, replacing Royal Stuart)
Cowal Highland Gathering
University of Strathclyde
Rangers (the football club I presume)
Grampain Police
Australian Highlanders

plus clan tartans such as Elliot, Fergusuon, Graham of Menteith, Gunn, Nicholson, and Scott.

I find it interesting the number of bands wearing modern trade etc tartans such as
Flower of Scotland
Holyrood
Millenium
Scotland 2000
Scotland the Brave
Spirit of Scotland
Scottish National
Scotland Forever
Monarch of the Glen

and the large number of district tartans.

[Lachlan09]

Humour an old Brit ! What's meant by cookie-cutter dress ?

Does it mean highly repetitive ?

[MacLowlife]

Lachlan, I believe the idea is that a cookie cutter makes cookies ( cakes? Biscuits?) that are identical and a cookie cutter band is one that looks like every other band. I think the distinction is between uniformity WITHIN the ranks (good) and uniformity among the various bands (not so good). The shorter word for this is copying.

[OC Richard]

Humour an old Brit ! What's meant by cookie-cutter dress ?

Does it mean highly repetitive ?

That's very interesting. I used the term "cookie cutter" without stopping to think that it was an Americanism, but of course it is!

I suppose it means stamped out identically as in a production line.

Is there a British equivalent?

as in

broke his duck = got off the schnide

I guess the point of the original post was that, with all the thousands of tartans that are available, it amazed me that so many pipe bands wear the same tartans. Royal Stuart I can see, because most of the military pipe bands wear it. But why are MacLean of Duart and MacPherson so common?

The trend though seems to be changing. More and more pipe bands are going away from the once-universal white socks, and more are going to bespoke tartans, district tartans, and institutional tartans.

Meaning that there is more variety now than there was just five or ten years ago, which is a very good thing.

[fluter]

That's very interesting. I used the term "cookie cutter" without stopping to think that it was an Americanism, but of course it is!

Mental head smack!! It didn't occur to me, either. Do the British have a "biscuit cutter" in the kitchen, for making rounds of dough?

Now, if a cookie is a biscuit, what is a biscuit (Yank style)? In my part of the world, the same implement may be used for cutting both.

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

Richard,

I believe the intended purpose of this thread to be the discussion of civilian Highland attire in the post-Victorian/Edwardian period. In other words the type of everyday Highland attire worn either shortly before or immediately after the 1914-1918 War, and how that mode of dress has become "traditional" within the Scottish community, and how it has evolved into those classic styles which have changed very little in the past 100 years or so.

I beg to differ, as on these very forums there have been quite a large number of people posting photos of men in kilts attending weddings and other functions wearing black argyll jackets, white hose, ghillies, and the sorts of sporrans popular amongst pipe bands today (evening, day, and hunting).

I don't disagree with your comment about photos, but I do think it needs to be looked at in some sort of context when you bring band uniforms into the discussion.

By and large (at least these days) pipe bands the world over tend to be private clubs of like-minded individuals who enjoy piping and marching. With the scant exception of those bands who enjoy the privilege of "the sky is the limit" funding, costs are-- and always have been-- a major concern for bands. I am sure you will agree that the single greatest cost (other than the pipes) facing a band is the cost of the band uniform. And since this cost is quite often, if not usually, borne in its entirety by the individual band member, the least expensive option is usually the one ticked off by the band.

Since it is hard, cold economics that dictate how a band will be uniformed and since not all bands have pockets as deep as the Saint Andrew's Society of Washington DC pipes, drums, and colour guard (www.saintandrewsociety.org), it is not surprising that they would elect to dress in the least expensive, most readily accessible outfit. Hence Argyll jackets and the other accouterments of civilian attire worn by bandsmen.

The question of what makes something "historical" as opposed to "traditional" is a difficult one to answer, but to me the difference between the two terms is continuity of use.

So, the Great Kilt strikes me as historical, as it fell out of favour for nearly two centuries before undergoing a revival in recent times. Ghillie brogues, kilt jackets, Glengarries, and the rest of modern pipe band kit are traditional because there has been an unbroken lineage of use from their first appearance down to the present.

I will admit that one can semantically "blur the line" between historical and traditional, but the distinction really isn't that hard to make, unless one wishes to engage in parsing arguments. It is easy to see that the great kilt falls into the historical category; however, in regard to your assertion that the Argyll is traditionally worn by pipe bands, one could as easily-- and in my mind more validly-- make the argument that historically and traditionally pipe bands have worn military style uniforms, and have only recently adopted inexpensive civilian attire as their costume when performing.

But even if defining the difference between traditional and historical attire was much more difficult, the difference between what is worn by a band, and what constitutes "ordinary" Highland attire, is clearly discernible. Bands may wear civilian attire as their costume when performing (at which point it becomes their uniform), but that fact doesn't really make the topic of band uniforms something that fits into the definition of ordinary civilian Highland attire.

Likewise, lengthy lists of what tartans are popular in the world of pipe bands seems merely to underscore that this thread really does belong somewhere else: Historical (because of the constant references to The Highlanders of Scotland); Celtic Music (because it is about bands); or maybe Tartans (because of the lists of tartans worn by bands). None of this places the discussion in a civilian context, which, I believe, the "Traditional" forum is all about.

Now, having said all of that-- I personally find your posts on the subject of pipe bands to be very interesting. It is, in my opinion, unfortunate that they are scattered all over the site, rather than pulled together in one forum. Perhaps Steve and the Mods should consider a dedicated Pipe Band forum, similar to the Heraldry forum, so that these postings can attract a wider audience?

MoR

[OC Richard]

historically and traditionally pipe bands have worn military style uniforms, and have only recently adopted inexpensive civilian attire as their costume when performing.

True that most pipe bands wore military style uniforms, from the beginnings of civilian pipe bands in the late 19th century up until the 1960's and 1970's when pipe bands began abandoning that look in droves and took up wearing either Evening Dress or Day Dress, before settling on the black Argyll & Glengarry look that's still universal.

But there have always been civilian pipe bands who wore ordinary civilian Highland Dress, for example this band in 1935: