clan crest motif marketing idea

[Riverkilt]

Great find and great idea cousin.

Never did figure out how the Christian cross got on the crest of a Viking clan. Been a nemisis to me since I'm not Christian. So anything to do with my clan and highland galleys and salmon is right by me.

[JSFMACLJR]

What did Lyon Clerk say about beaver buttons, Sandy?

She said I'm good to go on that one! My chief, BTW, hates beavers, as do many Highland land-owners right now who are in the midst of the move to reintroduce beavers in the highlands.

[JSFMACLJR]

I wonder if this is just a "stongly expressed opinion." I mean, what jurisdiction does the Lyon Court have over non-heraldic dress and accessories, really??

Matt, I see your point here, and I am pretty sure Lyon Clerk was just expressing an opinion. Still, though, there is sort of a "grey area" here. The salmon is a badge of long standing granted to the Duke of Argyll and to MacLean of Duart. As such, it is their property. Is it any different than a crest being the sole property of the armiger? But at the same time, a salmon is just a fish, and if one likes fish, why can't one have buttons made up like salmon?

The topics that worry heraldists!

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

I wonder if this is just a "stongly expressed opinion." I mean, what jurisdiction does the Lyon Court have over non-heraldic dress and accessories, really?

If an individual has been granted a badge, then that badge is subject to the same "protection" as the crest or coat of arms which means that it falls within the jurisdiction of the Lord Lyon. So, if the salmon badge of Argyll ends up being used as buttons on a doublet, and Argyll objects, Lyon can order the buttons removed. If the offending individual refuses he can be hauled before the Court (of the Lord Lyon) and the appropriate penalties will be assessed.

With reference to the Beaver... I believe that is the "Honorary Badge" of Robin Blair, the former Lord Lyon...

[Paul Henry]

This is nonsense, if I want to have salmon buttons on my waistcoat, jacket, or anywhere else, I can do, simple as that.
If I am copying exactly an image of a particular salmon that someone else has the rights to, that of course is something else. If I am trying to pass myself off as someone else by the use of some decorative device ,that too is wrong.

as Matt said :
I wonder if this is just a "stongly expressed opinion." I mean, what jurisdiction does the Lyon Court have over non-heraldic dress and accessories, really?

The simple answer is that it doesn't have any jurisdiction.

If anyone of us want to use artistic and/or decorative images as buttons or decoration, then we may. Of course some may question taste or style, but there is no "law" to prevent us

[M. A. C. Newsome]

Maybe this is going too far off topic for the thread, but it brings up an interesting point. A heraldic badge is heraldry and as has been rightly pointed out, would come under Lyon's jurisdcition and subject to protection, just as a creast, or arms would.

But the troublesome thing about a badge is that it is typically just a single object (like a salmon, etc) and displayed on its own one might not "get" that it is heraldic.

What is the difference between someone wearing a salmon tie-tack because he bears a salmon badge, and someone wearing a salmon tie-tack because he is an avid sport fisher?

I think it all boils down to context and intent, and these will be rather subjective areas. I don't think anyone is lying awake nights worrying over it, though. :-)

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

This is nonsense, if I want to have salmon buttons on my waistcoat, jacket, or anywhere else, I can do, simple as that.
If I am copying exactly an image of a particular salmon that someone else has the rights to, that of course is something else. If I am trying to pass myself off as someone else by the use of some decorative device ,that too is wrong.

as Matt said :
I wonder if this is just a "stongly expressed opinion." I mean, what jurisdiction does the Lyon Court have over non-heraldic dress and accessories, really?

The simple answer is that it doesn't have any jurisdiction.

If anyone of us want to use artistic and/or decorative images as buttons or decoration, then we may. Of course some may question taste or style, but there is no "law" to prevent us

Paul, I am sorry to say that your assessment of Scots Law and the Scottish Law Courts and their jurisdiction is flat out wrong.

Actually, there is a law* to prevent one usurping the heraldic rights of others, and while the jurisdiction of that law may be limited to the geographic entity of Scotland, it none the less exists. Were one to flaunt the law in Scotland one could very well find oneself hauled before the Court of the Lord Lyon and not only fined, but the offending article would be taken away and defaced.

Now it is true that the offense can only occur if the design (in this instance salmon buttons) is so similar to that of the badge of Argyll that, to the average man, they would appear to be the same. If the attitude of the salmon (the posture in which it is depicted) is different (leaping, as opposed to stretched out as though being served on a platter) then one could probably successfully argue that no offense has been committed, and in all likelihood the Court would agree. But that final decision would be up to the Court, who has absolute jurisdiction in these matters.

You may think it nonsense in London, but it is the law in Scotland.

*Statute 1596, cap. 125, and 1672, cap. 47, and 1669, cap. 95 clearly spell out the authority and jurisdiction of the Court of the Lord Lyon.

[Paul Henry]

MOR , this disscussion in in GENERAL . not heraldry. so your points about the "law" in Scotland concerning matters of interest to the Lyon Court, are not really valid in a general "chat" here!
And if you read what I said...
If I am copying exactly an image of a particular salmon that someone else has the rights to, that of course is something else. If I am trying to pass myself off as someone else by the use of some decorative device ,that too is wrong.

If I want to wear salmon buttons in Scotland, I will be doing no wrong and will face no penalty.

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

MOR , this disscussion in in GENERAL . not heraldry. so your points about the "law" in Scotland concerning matters of interest to the Lyon Court, are not really valid in a general "chat" here!
And if you read what I said...
If I am copying exactly an image of a particular salmon that someone else has the rights to, that of course is something else. If I am trying to pass myself off as someone else by the use of some decorative device ,that too is wrong.

If I want to wear salmon buttons in Scotland, I will be doing no wrong and will face no penalty.

Paul,

Generally I agree with you. You are a sensible guy and you are not going to purposely set out to do something stupid.

My posting, however, was in reply to your statement concerning the jurisdiction of the Court of the Lord Lyon-- nothing more, nothing less. That it appeared in General Kilt Talk is merely the result of you comment also appearing in this forum.

A lot of people read these posts, and it is all to easy for some of them to come away with wrong ideas-- sometimes by accident, sometimes by design. That being the case, when I see something that can be misinterpreted or cause confusion, I'll comment-- regardless of the forum in which it is posted.

MoR

[Paul Henry]

A lot of people read these posts, and it is all to easy for some of them to come away with wrong ideas-- sometimes by accident, sometimes by design. That being the case, when I see something that can be misinterpreted or cause confusion, I'll comment-- regardless of the forum in which it is posted.

I'm all for making sure that people don't run away with the wrong ideas, and getting things correct is actually very important to me.

My nonsense comment wasn't primarily about the Court of the Lord Lyon in general ,as it does have an important role, but in particular about the salmon

I wouldn't want people ( all over the world) to think that they can't wear jacket with buttons of whatever design they like, in case they face prosecution, your comment about limits of Lyon are well worth remembering!

clip .....Actually, there is a law to prevent one usurping the heraldic rights of others, and while the jurisdiction of that law may be limited to the geographic entity of Scotland.... MOR