clan crest motif marketing idea

[OC Richard]

It seems like anything a maker sticks a clan crest on sells.

Not only on cap badges, but stuck on sporrans, sginean, buckles, kilt pins; and embroidered on shirts, baseball caps, etc.

But this painting in The Highlanders Of Scotland shows something I don't think I've ever seen elsewhere, the knitting of the clan motif, in this case the deer head motif of the MacKenzies, into the actual hose pattern:



Which made me realise that hose like this could be made with the Highland galley of the MacDonalds! Or the motif of any clan I suppose. Would people buy them? I think so. I'd love to have a pair of hose with that MacDonald galley.

[Jock Scot]

In my humble opinion I think one can overdo the crest and tartan theme. There is, I think, a thin dividing line between subtlety and brashness.

[JSFMACLJR]

It seems like anything a maker sticks a clan crest on sells.

Not only on cap badges, but stuck on sporrans, sginean, buckles, kilt pins; and embroidered on shirts, baseball caps, etc.

But this painting in The Highlanders Of Scotland shows something I don't think I've ever seen elsewhere, the knitting of the clan motif, in this case the deer head motif of the MacKenzies, into the actual hose pattern:



Which made me realise that hose like this could be made with the Highland galley of the MacDonalds! Or the motif of any clan I suppose. Would people buy them? I think so. I'd love to have a pair of hose with that MacDonald galley.

Well, do clans have "motifs"? If you aren't armigerous, do you have any real claim to the heraldic devices belonging to somebody else?

That might be one side of the coin, which means there is an obverse! Stags heads, galleys, salmon, etc really could be used because one likes them, no? Good taste, though, would demand caution. Too much of all these "motifs"--as you call them--might rise to the level of "Brigadoonery" and be an impingement upon the lawful totems of an armiger.

PS. I do like those hose, though.

[M. A. C. Newsome]

I agree with Sandy. I think there is a fine line between "motif" and "heraldry." I can see someone who belongs to a clan such as MacKenzie, with a stag head crest, utilizing the stag's head as a motif as an homage to his clan.

For instance, it is common to see things such as sgians dubh, sporrans, etc., decorated with a stag head. The intent is not to claim this as "a crest." And of course anyone may choose to wear a sgian dubh or a sporran with a stag head emblem on it. But when someone is also a member of a clan whose chief uses a stag head in his heraldry, it does take on an additional layer of meaning.

One can buy neck ties, etc., with ebroidered stags on them, and likewise I don't think anyone seeing you wearing one would assume you are assuming that design as a personal crest. The assumption would just be that you liked the stag motif!

However, it can be overdone. I think there may come a point where if you play it up too much it might give them impression that you are acting as if the stag (or whatever it is) is part of your personal heraldry. However, I also think there may come a point when a motif is carried too far and it becomes tacky. To many the latter is a far greater offense than the former! :-)

But I agree, I like those hose!

[OC Richard]

Oh I readily admit that this clan crest thing is overdone.

I see people out at Games with their clan crest cap badgelike logo stuck on just about everything: an actual cap badge on their bonnet, but also miniature versions on their necktie, their cufflinks, their belt buckle, their sporran, their kilt pin, their sgian, even on rings and tattoos.

I don't care for that look one bit myself. The cap badge is plenty for me.

But those hose are very cool, and the one thing besides the cap badge I can see myself wearing are hose.

And, most significantly, I think such hose would sell, to these very same clan crest badge-wearing people.

Another use: Dunfion Bagpipes on the Isle of Arran makes pipes with the Highland clan galley carved into the wood of the drones.

About the propriety of this usage, I wouldn't know about that. But the usage is very widespread.

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

Crests, badges, and logos (another word for "motifs"?) are a sometimes nebulous area when commerce and heraldry bump up against each other. Strictly speaking the stag's head (as depicted on the hose in the illustration) only becomes "heraldry" when in someway attached to a coat of arms: when within a strap and buckle; when resting on a torse of the livery colours; or when displayed with a motto. Under these circumstances the devise can be clearly shown to be the property of a specific armiger; used by its lonesome, it is merely an element in a design and, generally speaking, free use can be made of it without transgressing any heraldic rights.

I think what makes these hose stand out is the fact that they are unique-- I suspect that if you could buy them from any stall at one's local Highland games they wouldn't be nearly as desirable.

[JSFMACLJR]

Strictly speaking the stag's head (as depicted on the hose in the illustration) only becomes "heraldry" when in someway attached to a coat of arms: when within a strap and buckle; when resting on a torse of the livery colours; or when displayed with a motto. Under these circumstances the devise can be clearly shown to be the property of a specific armiger; used by its lonesome, it is merely an element in a design and, generally speaking, free use can be made of it without transgressing any heraldic rights...

Scott,
So I thought, until Lyon Clerk advised me in no uncertain terms in her indominatable way that salmon buttons are the strict provinence of the Duke of Argyll and MacLean of Duart. I thought that because I bear way more salmon in my arms than both the noble duke and my chief, I too could have salmon buttons. Wrong! Herself told me (aside from the matter-of-taste factor) that salmon are badges granted to Argyll and Duart, and I have no badge, alas! I'm not sure how correct she might be...but she usually is!

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

Sandy,

I think that some badges are so strongly identified with their owner (the three ostrich plumes of the Prince of Wales comes to mind) that they take on the nature of a propriatery object. Now, does that mean that they are "verbotten" if someone else wants to use them? Well... yes... and no. There would be a social stigma attached to the use of the badge of your clan chief because those in the know would recognise it for exactly what it is-- someone else's badge.

All, however, is not lost.

You may depict the salmon on your buttons in a different attitude (chasing it's tail, for instance) than those of your chief without transgressing his heraldic rights to his badge.

[M. A. C. Newsome]

Scott,
So I thought, until Lyon Clerk advised me in no uncertain terms in her indominatable way that salmon buttons are the strict provinence of the Duke of Argyll and MacLean of Duart. I thought that because I bear way more salmon in my arms than both the noble duke and my chief, I too could have salmon buttons. Wrong! Herself told me (aside from the matter-of-taste factor) that salmon are badges granted to Argyll and Duart, and I have no badge, alas! I'm not sure how correct she might be...but she usually is!

I wonder if this is just a "stongly expressed opinion." I mean, what jurisdiction does the Lyon Court have over non-heraldic dress and accessories, really?

The square buttons on my Argyle jacket have little rampant lions on them, as do perhaps about half the black Argyle and Prince Charlie jackets sold today (the other half bearing thistles). If one can sport the lion rampant ona button, why could one not cast buttons shaped like fish?

And if someone says, "Hey, I thought only The Duke of Argyle could wear salmon buttons," you could just say, "Actually these are herring, but I suppose they do look a bit like salmon, don't they," and then give a knowing wink. :-)

What did Lyon Clerk say about beaver buttons, Sandy?

[OC Richard]

salmon buttons are the strict provinence of the Duke of Argyll and MacLean of Duart.

It's interesting that one of the portraits in The Highlanders Of Scotland is wearing a doublet with fish-shaped buttons.

He is John MacLachlan.
The text says of him:
"Born in 1845 at Camusnangall, parish of Kilmallie, at that time the property of Mr MacLean of Ardgour, and now belonging to the Earl of Morton. ..
the subject of the portrait is post-runner in the north district of Ardgour and is unmarried."

Salmon, I might point out, are a very common motif in prehistoric art. A man found preserved in the permafrost had one tattooed on his thigh. Native Americans along the Pacific Northwest carved lodge poles bearing salmon. An ancient Celtic harp has the post carved as a salmon.