untraditional traditions

[Zardoz]

What a waste of decent tailoring. The rules of the house prohibit me from using the appropriate word to describe the designer and the wearer; suffice it to say that those who are up on their rhyming slang will follow through from 'berk'.

Not to everyones taste for sure, But as we say in the motorcycle biz, there's a seat for every butt.

Courtmount, after having read dozens of your didactic and uncompromising posts about what is and is not proper Highland wear, I think we would all like to see some photographic evidence of your own sartorial splendor.

[auld argonian]

Courtmount, after having read dozens of your didactic and uncompromising posts about what is and is not proper Highland wear, I think we would all like to see some photographic evidence of your own sartorial splendor.

...so Kilted Style is sort of like that old Supreme Court Justice Stewart line about pornography..."I can't define it but I know it when I see it."?

Best

AA

[Whidbey78]

I believe that the narrow "eight yards of wool, etc. etc. etc." is a bit short sighted. What happened when Scots were stationed in a tropical area? They adapted the uniform. Didn't elements of the British Army in India wear a different uniform from their counterparts at home? Even today military garb is modified for climates. I did two deployments in Iraq and one in Afganistan and I'll be darned...we wore a slightly different uniform in each place and wore it very differently. So if Civilian Highland Dress got some of it's cues from military garb and it adapted over time to different areas AND being around different cultures doesn't it make sense that civilians--who have a choice--are going to adapt their wardrobe to the area? And what about ones own tastes? It's not a uniform, so each person can and should wear it in a way they like.

What would be comfortable in the Highlands in, say, September, would be unbearable on the Gulf Coast in September. You have to adapt. And don't get me wrong--I AM NOT saying to abandon tradition--far from it. But ultimately it's really fashion, not life or death. Lighten up!

I had a guy, completely out of the blue, inform me once that I had no right to wear the Gunn tartan! He didn't ask if that was my clan, if there is any connection to it, or why I was wearing it. Two things struck me as odd here. First, for all this *&^% knew I was the clan chief! I wasn't wearing a nametag or anything. Second the tartan wasn't Gunn...it was US Army(also my avatar). So not only did he prove himself a jerk, he also proved himself stupid.

If you don't like what someone is wearing please take a moment to ask two questions:

1. Does this person's clothing, opinion, action, etc., etc. really have any effect on what I'm doing, how I live, etc? (In short...does it REALLY matter?)

2. Do I know why he is doing this, wearing that, etc? (The answer to this is almost always a flat NO! Assuming does not count as a yes.)

If you can not answer "Yes" to BOTH questions then move along unless you wish to either ask that person questions so you have enough information to answer "yes" to question two, or just say Hi. And if you answered yes to question one, I suggest re-evaluating your priorities and/or seeking professional help.

As was posted earlier, "There's a seat for every butt." I like that.

In the immortal words of Forrest Gump, "That's all I have to say about that."

[Zardoz]

...so Kilted Style is sort of like that old Supreme Court Justice Stewart line about pornography..."I can't define it but I know it when I see it."?

Best

AA

Maybe... But I need to see it first.

[CMcG]

CMcg,

Consider white hose, belts with dress waist plates worn with a Prince Charlie coatee and waistcoat, tartan flashes, ghillie/highlander shirts, and fly plaids.

These are all fairly recent developments (most starting in the 1970's and the rise of kilt rental shops), but far longer than the modern take on kilts like R Kilts, Utilikilts, and such or wearing hiking boots with scrunched down hose with a kilt. Even with a few decades behind them there are many that do not /will not consider these traditional.

I suspect that the truth is there can be many overlapping traditions and in the end it boils down to what the individual likes and the justifications/reasoning they find to support their choices.

Cheers

Jamie :ootd:

<snip>

Additionally, for some of us, kilt-wearing is a means of signifying that we are Americans of Scottish descent, not Americans in a general sense. Given that, I don't know that there's a desire for "uniquely American" items of highland dress beyond state, military, or American tartans.

David

Perhaps the word "tradition" is too loaded in regards to the kilt and my OP might better have said something like "emerging conventions." But then this thread might not have attracted as much attention!

I'd like to try and tease apart three main trends, which as Jamie wrote, often overlap.

For those who wear the kilt as a symbol of Scots heritage and wear it with some regularity, I think THCD will remain the dominant mode for the foreseeable future. This seems to be moderated by untraditional regional variations (climate-based adaptations, a flat cap here, an unearned regimental tie there, wearing of various clan and non-clan tartans) but, by and large, remains traditional.

For better or for worse, the kilt retail and rental industries have a significant impact on the way the kilt is worn outside the highlands. This is especially true of people who wear the kilt infrequently, say rented or purchased for their wedding but not to be worn again for a decade. Supply and demand, scales of economy, and standardization all contribute to a certain type of look. Being a member of this site appears to go a long way towards diminishing the cookie cutter look though

For the individual unfettered by tradition and/or with a desire to make their own sartorial choices without undue reliance on mass produced style, there is another path. While there may not be anything with the specificity of THCD, I'm starting to think that attitude might be the defining factor. In Canada and the U.S., there are many folk who take being untraditional as a virtue and this plays out in a great variety of kilted styles.

This last mode of dress is the domain of the modern kilt but also traditional kilts worn in various untraditional ways. Individualistic expression is important to some but, for others, simplicity and comfort are more key. Perhaps this ties into a general culture in the former colonies of prizing the new (and rejecting the old) while dealing with lower levels of formality in society. For some, the kilt is just comfortable, functional clothing and that shows a rather particular attitude into and of itself.

I'm sure I haven't exhausted the issue and I'm probably displaying an over-generalized North America bias, but how does that sound?

[davidlpope]

You analysis makes a lot of sense to me. Particularly this bit:

For better or for worse, the kilt retail and rental industries have a significant impact on the way the kilt is worn outside the highlands. This is especially true of people who wear the kilt infrequently, say rented or purchased for their wedding but not to be worn again for a decade. Supply and demand, scales of economy, and standardization all contribute to a certain type of look. Being a member of this site appears to go a long way towards diminishing the cookie cutter look though

The only issue that I would raise regards this:

For those who wear the kilt as a symbol of Scots heritage and wear it with some regularity, I think THCD will remain the dominant mode for the foreseeable future. This seems to be moderated by untraditional regional variations (climate-based adaptations, a flat cap here, an unearned regimental tie there, wearing of various clan and non-clan tartans) but, by and large, remains traditional.

I'm not sure that many kilt-wearers in the US really even know what THCD is. Instead, they know what they have been exposed to by other American kilt-wearers. As such, true THCD can't really serve as a guide for most. Yes, there may be some here in the US who, though birth, family tradition, or study, subscribe to THCD and would not stick out if attending the Braemar Gathering, but I think those folks are few and far between. Instead, I think a distinctly American kilt-wearing style (aspects of which are illustrated by Jamie's description pasted below) is in the majority here.

CMcg,
Consider white hose, belts with dress waist plates worn with a Prince Charlie coatee and waistcoat, tartan flashes, ghillie/highlander shirts, and fly plaids.

In some ways I think it's like "Corn Beef and Cabbage" with the Irish. Most Americans think that folks in Ireland eat/ate corned beef and cabbage, and, thus, have it as a "tradition" here in the US on St. Patrick's Day. The combination, though, is a uniquely American dish that resulted from the interaction of Irish immigrants with their Jewish, etc. immigrant neighbors. It's been around for so long, though, that it has become a symbol, of sorts, of Irish-American identity. I think the same holds true for American kilt-wearing. We'll likely do it "wrong" for so long that it will become "traditional" in its on way...

David

[Whidbey78]

It may be slightly over-simplified, but that's fine considering that one could write a book on the topic. In fact, I'd wager that the book may have been written already.

I think that many of us who wear a tartan or solid traditionally styled kilt do so to honor Scot or Celtic heritage, and/or to be somewhat unconventional. When it comes to how we do it in the states (not counting UK's, X-Kilts, etc.) I think a good chunk of the difference from THCD comes from an underlying attitude that we have and I never noticed until dealing with Brits in the military. That attitude, subtle as it is, can be summed up in one sentence: "We're Americans and we'll do it our way!!!"

Don't get me wrong. I'm not stirring a hornets nest--not intending to anyway--or trying to start a new cold war. It's just that North Americans, especially in the US, have an independant streak, which combined with a cultural "melting pot" have made us adapt a lot of cultures habits, traditions, technologies, etc. to our own use and what we want it to be.

It's 2010 now, and in the last few years there has been an increase in the number of Americans wearing the kilt. Granted, many wear it for special occasions, some much more frequently. Check again in 2020 and I think we'll see a "new tradition" here. It's still relatively new to a lot of people here. Many people picking up the kilt are the first in their family, or the first in several generations. Fashions evolve, and I think that given time for evolution to take it's course we will probably see a "split" with THCD and a more contemporary American style emerge. No doubt it will be similar to what we see today, and will not be drastically different from what will be worn in the Highlands ten years from now. The differences will be in the details, which is really what makes it what it is.

Of course there will be holdouts...traditionalists who refuse to change. That's fine. They'll yell and scream about how it's all wrong and things just shouldn't be done that way. Blue jeans became accepted in everyday dress despite those complaints. So did the t-shirt.

Whatever happens though, I think ultimately we should be supportive of each other. Allow change to happen, because if history teaches anything, it's that change WILL happen. As Red Green would say "We're all in this together. I'm pullin' for ya'."

[Alan H]

Not to everyones taste for sure, But as we say in the motorcycle biz, there's a seat for every butt.

Courtmount, after having read dozens of your didactic and uncompromising posts about what is and is not proper Highland wear, I think we would all like to see some photographic evidence of your own sartorial splendor.

I second that notion.

On a related topic....

I no longer post in the "Traditional Wear" forum. I don't even read it. I stay out because I know that I will only get angry and upset at the opinions and attitudes expressed there. The men and women who post there are absolutely entitled to their opinions. You bet. But I know that in some cases those opinions will aggravate and annoy me. In light of my own peace of mind as well as the enjoyment of the forum by myself and others, I simply don't view the forum at all.

Why some people cannot do the same for this forum, is beyond me.

And on yet ANOTHER related topic....

I am bemused at the fact that the overwhelming majority of the posts in this thread, which is in the contemporary kilt forum, in fact have to do with tartan kilts. "It's as if "Contemporary Kilt Wear" has changed from meaning a Utilikilt or Freedom Kilt or Alphakilt, to meaning "wearing a traditional kilt in a different-from-traditional manner."

We discuss whether it's proper to wear a hat, and precisely what kind of hat, with your 8-yard kilt, here. Sure, there are posts which are exceptions to this. There is a post about Howie's contemporary kilts. There's one picture of a Utilikilt. But the OVERWHELMING majority of discussion is about "slightly non-traditional ways to wear a traditional kilt."

This is a significant change from the climate in X Marks from, say two years ago.

[Alan H]

I am wrong in one point. This is the "modern kilt wear" forum, not the "contemporary kilt" forum. That may be a significant point, or not. I'm not sure.

However, of one thing I am sure. At one point I felt that X Marks exhibited a balance between the "tartan kilt with Scottish Heritage".. and the "Modern Kilt" as primarily exemplified by the Utilikilt, Freedom Kilt, R-Kilt, X-Kilt and so on.

That balance has shifted, drastically, and is no longer roughly 50/50. It's much closer to 80/20 now, with the 80 representing the "Tartan kilt". This thread is the perfect example of that change.

Good, bad, whatever, I make no judgement call on that. But it IS a change.

[macwilkin]

I second that notion.

On a related topic....

I no longer post in the "Traditional Wear" forum. I don't even read it. I stay out because I know that I will only get angry and upset at the opinions and attitudes expressed there. The men and women who post there are absolutely entitled to their opinions. You bet. But I know that in some cases those opinions will aggravate and annoy me. In light of my own peace of mind as well as the enjoyment of the forum by myself and others, I simply don't view the forum at all.

Why some people cannot do the same for this forum, is beyond me.

And on yet ANOTHER related topic....

I am bemused at the fact that the overwhelming majority of the posts in this thread, which is in the contemporary kilt forum, in fact have to do with tartan kilts. "It's as if "Contemporary Kilt Wear" has changed from meaning a Utilikilt or Freedom Kilt or Alphakilt, to meaning "wearing a traditional kilt in a different-from-traditional manner."

We discuss whether it's proper to wear a hat, and precisely what kind of hat, with your 8-yard kilt, here. Sure, there are posts which are exceptions to this. There is a post about Howie's contemporary kilts. There's one picture of a Utilikilt. But the OVERWHELMING majority of discussion is about "slightly non-traditional ways to wear a traditional kilt."

This is a significant change from the climate in X Marks from, say two years ago.

Then report the thread to the Moderators and ask them to move it to a more appropriate forum, Allen.

T.