Why a kilt costs what it does...a re-re-re-hash

[Alan H]

Actually, my point was not to suggest that we all feel sorry for the poor kiltmakers.

Rather, it was to point out that $180 for a Utilikilt was not an outrageous price, considering what you get and who made it. For a custom kilt made in a smaller shop where they don't get discounts for buying 1,000 yards of material at one go, the cost is significantly higher.

BTW, I've seen Utilikilts, and I've seen Freedom Kilts and I've seen R-Kilts up close and personal. I've made a lot of kilts (about 40) both by hand and by machine so I think I'm a reasonable judge. I'll tell you right now that the R Kilt product and the Freedom Kilt product is a much better built, more intricately designed, more detailed piece of kit than the Utilikilt.

I'm not knocking Utilikilts. They are what they are, and kudos to them, but a WHOLE lot more work goes into making the Freedom Kilt and R Kilt product. Thus, they cost a lot more.

[WClarkB]

I am not a professional kilt maker; just having finished kilt #3.
I just spent over 300USD for material for kilt number 5. I spend time making kilts (admittedly not working but doing enough work to be aware of the work involved).

Kilts are ASTOUNDINGLY CHEAP for the work involved!

[RockyR]

All I said was that I found places that offer high quality goods for decent prices. I never mentioned kilts or SHO in particular. You assumed I was talking about them, but I was not specifically mentioning anyone.

That's a bit disingenuous, don't you think? For all the positive comments and Kudos you give SHO on a regular basis, I think it was a pretty fair assumtion. Also, I didn't say that they were the ONLY company you thought was a good deal.

[bricelythgoe]

That's a bit disingenuous, don't you think? For all the positive comments and Kudos you give SHO on a regular basis, I think it was a pretty fair assumtion. Also, I didn't say that they were the ONLY company you thought was a good deal.

Not really. I have learned not to assume things. If you are referring to a kilt company than, yes, that is the company I would buy from (Originally not first choice though ).

[Riverkilt]

Just to clarify the old adage from the cut and sew trade, "You can have any two of price, quality, or service." I picked that adage up working in Hell's Kitchen of New York City back in the early 1970s.

My cut and sew experience goes back to 1954 when my father bought a small cut and sew business and put his family to work. I was ten years old and worked every day after school and on weekends...sweatshop. Stayed in that trade afterschool, weekends, vacations through high school. Went off to college and minored in clothing & textiles. Stayed in the business after college as a manufacturer's rep selling to wholesale dry goods and chain stores through 1973. I can tell you without a doubt the buyers were extremely sharp. This was back in the days when most cloth was woven or knitted in the U.S. and most clothing was cut and sewn in the U.S. I learned the adage from these sharp buyers who wouldn't put up with "bad goods" because their reputation depended on the lines they carried.

I didn't invent the adage. I pass it on because I believe it to be true from years of experience - both as a seller, and as a buyer.

If someone doesn't believe that wise old adage is true, that's fine.

[wildrover]

Read:

Faster, Better, Cheaper: The Iron Triangle of Higher Education Assessment

Not what I am talking about. You are assuming that, not me.

I assumed nothing, it was an example, showing that major differences in price will only happen when either labor, material, or overhead cost are strikingly different between sellers. If someone is working from their home, their overhead cost will be low. If they are in a very small town with low rates on space, again, overhead is low. Since I think it's fairly safe to assume everyone is getting their material from the same group of sources, the major differences will be either in labor rate or overhead. Many businesses online are able to offer the prices they do, simply because they have no storefront...or share a storefront with another business.

So, first, who decides those 3 people are at the top of their game? Also, who decides that they are the best? Who decides that they are as FAST as anyone can go? Seems a little subjective to me.

I don't see how that's subjective unless you're in to subjective equality as a philosophical hobby or something. I don't have any talent making kilts, neither do most people, and it is a very small market, so I'm pretty certain that I'm correct in saying they're among the best kiltmakers in the world. Sounds big and weighty, but like I said, how many full-time (or even part-time, for-profit) kiltmakers can you list? I think we'd be lucky to list a hundred. I am making the assumption that, as full-time professionals rather than hobbyists, they're making kilts as fast as they can, since literally time is equivalent to money, and for a flat rate product, speed is profitable.

So, without picking random, one-in-a-million exceptions, I think it's statistically valid to state things like "top of their game" and "as fast as possible". I didn't say they are the best kiltmakers...rather, they are in a group of the best kiltmakers. If I didn't name someone's name, it was oversight, not rejection, and if you were to grab any random group of professional tailors and put them to work on a flat-rate kilt project, I bet they'll sew about as fast as any of these kiltmakers.

Traditional can me lots of different things. If by traditional, you mean traditionally TRAINED, then that eliminates most of the custom kilt makers on this form. Most have not had the training that others, Like Barb T., has had. Therefore, going by what you say is Traditional, most of the kilts made by people on this forum are NOT traditional and therfore not as good. Sounds a little silly to me.

No, you said all that stuff was traditional. I said "traditional and traditional style, and then put "traditional" in quotes to denote that it was not a concrete descriptor...but let's say "tank" instead, because, like "traditional" in quotes, it's specific enough without specifying exactly how all the little details are handled, and in our discussion of price vs. product, it removes any ambiguity presented by hand-sewn 4-yard box pleats, kingussie pleats, and so forth. 8-yard, knife-pleated kilts are common, so they're easy to compare...the material is close enough to be considered "the same" (how many mills produce 16oz wool tartan?), and the labor going in to the finished product is the same (everyone has to perform the same operations), which leaves the difference in price at the door of labor rate and overhead cost. Incidentally, you can do the same with PV kilts, as I noticed in a quick scan of a bunch of websites.

Again, not what I am talking about. I never said anything about finding cheaper labor in a foreign country. We are talking about USA made goods. Sorry if you got lost in the conversation.

Now, don't huck me in to the trees based on your interpretation or application of my examples! I am certainly not lost in the conversation. Labor and overhead rates are the two greatest potential sources of profit margin. I provided extreme examples, extrapolation is up to you. But here is a less extreme example. The disparity between the Canadian and American economies (in other words, the price of a gallon of milk in Canada, vs America, in each country's respective dollars), and a variant exchange rate, means that even in two Western countries, big-ticket and durable goods may be a better deal when purchased by citizens of one country, in the other country's economy. Another way to think of it is, if you are living in one economy, your make your wages, pay your rent, buy your food, etc. in that economy, then your comparative expenses as a percentage of your income should be very, very similar to your expenses in another economy...for example, the USA, Britain, Canada, and Australia.

Excepting petrol, speeding tickets, and ammunition, your standard of living should be very similar in all four economies, but because the exchange rate isn't keeping exact pace with a gallon of milk in Australia vs Britannia vs Canadia vs Americania, you can get a kilt comparatively cheaper right now if you are Canadian and can sort out a purchase from an American kiltmaker.

By the same token, the various measures of cost of living can be used within the USA to guess at what areas would have the lowest overhead rates.

That is a good way to justify doing two things:

1. Charging high prices (from a company owners perspective)
2. Paying High prices (from a consumers perspective)

If what you say is true, than you can justify whatever you want.

What you have just stated is the reason that prices are so ridiculously high at Starbucks, Apple, Banana Republic, and other businesses compared to the quality of the product. What you have identified is a little game that retailers and consumers play...if you are a retailer, and you charge too little, nobody takes you seriously. You must price your product equivalent to your competition, to be considered by an uneducated consumer as being in the same range of quality or performance. To a blockheaded consumer, paying more must mean a better product. This is an assumption leveraged by many a mall retailer to increase profit margin. I am leery of applying that assertion in this case, as quality goods in a niche market tend to be built for their own sake, less so with profit as the ultimate goal. I'm not saying people make kilts out of the goodness of their hearts, I'm saying it's one of few industries where the quality of the product is expected to drive profit, compared to "mall goods" where profit and price point are allowed to drive product quality.

I have just purchased two kilts within a years time and fullfilled ALL three of what you are saying.

I'm glad you feel that way. Frankly, if I'm getting a kilt from the vendors whose sites I've browsed through links here, I'm pretty sure I'm getting a good deal. May I assume you're referring to PV kilts? If so, the price differences between vendors weren't large, when the same (or very similar) item is concerned. I'm not sure where the price disparity you're referring to, is coming from...because I think I'm free to assume that the quality is similar, and unless you got something off the rack, they were built in similar time by similar methods.

I think most people are smart enough to figure things out. Most people, me included, realize that a good quality item will cost more than normal. However, we also realize that paying a high price, just because some people say high price = high quality, does not always mean you will get high quality. It might even be the opposite In some cases, it is the sign of someone trying to rip you off.

Most people are savvy enough to catch the last, if it smacks them in the face, or if it's being sold in a full-page paid advertisement, or being hawked by the Slap Chop guy (look it up on YouTube). Otherwise, I think (as someone famously said) that individuals can be intelligent, whereas people are dumb, panicky animals.

Again this is my basic point: You can make High Quality items, in the USA, for a good price. Not necessarily a cheap price, but a good, fair price. I would say, Rocky, that the following groups you mentioned:

Good Quality / Good price
HIGH Quality and HIGH price.

Overlap more than people would realize.

So...I don't get it, then. I can't say I've noticed a huge difference in price between retailers, in this niche market, any more than I've noticed a huge difference in price between bagpipe retailers, sporran makers, or sock knitters. Are you saying that everyone but the makers(?) of your two recent kilts is overcharging? Are you just saying that the kiltmaker you've chosen has a lower overhead or labor rate? Are you suggesting there is a different business model that aspiring kiltmakers should follow? Are you willing to consider that other products may be of better quality material or construction than your purchases? I'm not slighting anyone, I'm only trying to cover all the bases as to why one kilt might cost more than another.

I think we can AGREE to DISAGREE

I think the only thing we might all agree on is that we all like the sound of our own keyboards clicking away . I'm out...got other stuff I gotta do ...but I'll read your reply, should you choose to ...

-Sean

[bricelythgoe]

I am kind of done replying here. I made my point. Besides for the most part you are just rehashing what you have already told except in a lot longer form.

Again like I said, I have a hard time saying something MUST be expensive. That was all I was getting at. I understand why many kilts are very expensive (yes, 400 dollars is expensive to me, but not everyone). As long as there are people that really believe they are getting A LOT more for their money on a more expensive kilt and are willing to spend their own money for that kilt, I have no problem with that at all (I believe this thread is proof that there are quite a few people like that). Let the free market rule.

[bricelythgoe]

I think the only thing we might all agree on is that we all like the sound of our own keyboards clicking away . I'm out...got other stuff I gotta do ...but I'll read your reply, should you choose to ...

-Sean

What keyboard do you have?? I hate the sound of mine...

[Rob Wright]

Again like I said, I have a hard time saying something MUST be expensive. That was all I was getting at.

The exceptions in my book are custom made items. Especially custom made items to ones design or specifications. Some custom items can be inexpensive, abundance of materials needed, limited amount of time needed to complete etc.

Most kilts do fall in the custom item bracket. Sewn to an individual's measurements, is the tartan ordered in stock or a rarer tartan that needs to be weaved? What style of pleating is the kilt going to be in? Due to these factors, my tanks have cost $525 to $595 US. Three of my tartans are of the rare variety and are not stocked to the extent of others.

I expect to pay more for something rarer. Less demand means less in stock which entails higher costs to produce, therefor increasing the price.


To me the mantra of cheaper and better cannot be completely applied to items that are rare, unique, and/or one of a kind.

Rob

[NorCalPiper]

I think that a kilt is worth what the buyer is willing to pay. I LOVE my PV kilts and think they are just as good and comparable to Rocky or Steve's. I have the luxury of not having a store front, so my pricing does not have the factors that they do.

I don't make 100% hand stitched kilts, but what I do make (half/half hand/machine) are complete contenders and priced fairly. I am lucky in that my store is the most unique on the market as far as offering new, and innovative ideas for an assortment of products. Because I make 2 of the lines (Sporrans and kilts), and have direct contact and relationships with the vendors who make my other stuff, I am able to make a REALLY nice spread of pricing, while at the same time, a living.

I'm not in this to be the next USA kilts or Burnett & Struth. I am EXTREMELY proud of what I've done with my own sector and where I stand today, and I'm also glad to be part of these exciting times where we see companies like USAKilts, Freedom kilts, B&S really taking the lead for the NA market and establishing lifelong relationships with customers here where the market is booming (My waiting list for N.A. and Canadian customers is almost at 4 months for everything across the board). I also love being the "Apple Computer" in a PC world....."Think Different"....

So spend what you want on your favorite maker! I love it that Brice loves my stuff. Everyone who has bought one of my PVs falls in-love with them, so I feel like I'm doing my part. I love it that Ron buys all his PVs from Rocky, which shows his passion for kilt wearing and who he buys it from. I love it that I have bought a casual for myself from B&S and can't wait to wear it. I love it that Matt and Lady Chrystel have reintroduced something wonderful to us, and are both setting tradition and customer love through their work. I love it that every single alt-kilt that I see in the Bay area is a freedom kilt. Its all about wearing a kilt and being free....right? I love this life more than I EVER loved it. I want you all to love being kilted and not get weighted down by these kind of post questions.