"Saffron" colour of Irish kilts?

[O'Callaghan]

But when it came to a kilt, they were of course to be wool.

That was exactly my meaning. Anyone dyeing a woolen kilt with saffron would necessarily have wound up with the shade that we now have.

I have not come across anything that would say that brats or mantles were not dyed in saffron.

Indeed not, although apparently the only quote on the subject says that brats were 'striped'. Some take that as tartan, which may or may not have been right. There is certainly much earlier evidence of tartan being known to celts. OTOH, neither did it say striped vertically and horizontally, so they may not have been tartan either.

We won't get into the whole discussion of Irish and kilts, that has been done many times. None the less, there has been 110 years of "brownish" saffron kilts being know as the "Irish tradition".

As of 1900, the discussion seems to have centred on adopting something for Irish national dress that would actually get worn, not on accurately reproducing something ancient.

Nevertheless, there are some reports of the British Army adopting the saffron kilt for Irish pipers at some point during the previous century. Whether the British Army thought that the ancient Irish had worn kilts is not something we know or are likely to find out. What we do know for sure, though, is that the kilt could be combined with standard military uniform on the upper half of the body, whereas that isn't true of the leine.

[Slag101]

Don't forget that the mordant has an impact on the final color as well as oxidation. We have to consider the oxidation of the dye stuff, the mordant, and the combination of the two. An example of this is indigo. Indigo is still used to dye denim. The varying shades of blue with indigo dye can be from the lightest, palest, almost white blue to the darkest, almost black blue. This varies based on the purity of the dye (how much of it is really indigo), what other color enhancers may be added, and what mordent is used. Also, the type of material being dyed plays a part. Vegetable dyes will vary in shade, stability, colorfastness, oxidation rates, oxidation shades, etc. There can also be great variation from one dye lot to the next for a variety of reasons, including how long the dye is cooked for, how long the cloth is exposed for, etc.

[macwilkin]

As of 1900, the discussion seems to have centred on adopting something for Irish national dress that would actually get worn, not on accurately reproducing something ancient.

Nevertheless, there are some reports of the British Army adopting the saffron kilt for Irish pipers at some point during the previous century. Whether the British Army thought that the ancient Irish had worn kilts is not something we know or are likely to find out. What we do know for sure, though, is that the kilt could be combined with standard military uniform on the upper half of the body, whereas that isn't true of the leine.

Did you ever find a source for this claim of a mid 19th century adoption of the kilt by Irish regiments of the British Army? The earliest I have found comes from the raising of the Irish Guards during the Boer War at the turn of the century, about the same time that the myth of the kilt as an ancient Irish garment was coming into fashion.

T.

[O'Callaghan]

Did you ever find a source for this claim of a mid 19th century adoption of the kilt by Irish regiments of the British Army? The earliest I have found comes from the raising of the Irish Guards during the Boer War at the turn of the century, about the same time that the myth of the kilt as an ancient Irish garment was coming into fashion.

T.

Not really, apart from assertions on various webpages. It seems to be quite commonly believed, though. I think that there are possibly provable dates for the introduction of pipers in certain regiments, and this is usually coupled with the assumption that they wore kilts. This doesn't mean they didn't, though. I have seen similar claims that the kilt as a symbol of Irish nationalism goes back to the founding of the Gaelic League (which we know was 1893). None of this meets your standards as a historian, though.

Given that the British Army co-opted the kilt as a symbol in Scotland, I have to say it does seem possible that they only adopted it for pipers in Ireland after the republicans adopted the kilt, as a similar 'spoiler'. Except that they do appear to have adopted the pipes themselves before the republicans did, so why not the kilt as well?

As an aside, the two-drone pipes do seem to have been played in Ireland at a much earlier date than either the British Army or the republicans played them. Of course, they appear to have been introduced to the British Isles via France in that form, so there is nothing uniquely Irish about pipes of that particular type. It's more the case that the three-drone version is uniquely Scottish, and therefore the two-drone version is more authentic for non-Scots. Nevertheless, you'll notice that the pictures at the beginning of the thread show pipes with three drones. I have seen older photos of Irish regiments with pipes that only have two drones, though.

[OC Richard]

Wow this thread was just happening over the last couple days and who should walk by yesterday but a group of around ten monks!

Most of the robes were the usual "saffron" colour, but one guys' robe was indeed a brownish shade, and one was a brilliant glowing orange.

Monks and mordants aside, McClintock lays out all the evidence available to him (in the 1940's) all of which points to the saffron colour of the old Irish leine being a light clear yellow.

Nobody has yet to put forth any evidence which conflicts with his conclusion, that the brown-orange colour used in modern Irish kilts has no historical basis.

[O'Callaghan]

Wow this thread was just happening over the last couple days and who should walk by yesterday but a group of around ten monks!

Most of the robes were the usual "saffron" colour, but one guys' robe was indeed a brownish shade, and one was a brilliant glowing orange.

Monks and mordants aside, McClintock lays out all the evidence available to him (in the 1940's) all of which points to the saffron colour of the old Irish leine being a light clear yellow.

Nobody has yet to put forth any evidence which conflicts with his conclusion, that the brown-orange colour used in modern Irish kilts has no historical basis.

I don't think that the colour has any historical basis earlier than the 19th century (except for buddhist monks' robes!), but the dye does. Just look at the traditional (although modern) Irish linen jacket. They are normally undyed, or if dyed, then they are dyed with synthetic dye and probably include some synthetic fabric as well. This speaks to the difficulty of dyeing linen. The same dye will turn a linen leine yellow and a woolen kilt orange/brown.

There is, as I recall, a kiltmaker on Prince Edward Island, in Canada, who will supply kilts in a shade of yellow designed to match the ancient leine, if one is so inclined. I can't really see it catching on, though.

[macwilkin]

In our article, there are several citations from "The Irish Regiments" by R.G. Harris that discuss pipers wearing standard uniforms and not kilts, caubeens, etc. It is not until WWI that we see Irish regimental pipers in any sort of kilt, et al.

T.